▶ 0:15:12Chair Capito: Good morning, everyone, and good morning to you, secretary mcmahon. We are here to discuss the president's budget. The request and your priorities for the department of education. I'm pleased to be joined mama -- by my friend and ranking member, senator baldwin. I think later on we will be joined by our full committee chairs, senator collins and the vice chair, senator murray.
▶ 0:15:40Chair Capito: We are all eager to build upon the bipartisan work we completed this past fiscal year and will love -- would like to see continue. You are entering your second year at the helm of the department of education. Much like the last time we were gathered we find ourselves at a crossroads. We stay the course with our education system as it is, hoping that more money and federal intervention will solve our problems?
▶ 0:16:06Chair Capito: Or do we ask questions and offer innovative solutions that can turn the tide? I think we both believe that all americans from our earliest learners to our post secondary students should have the opportunity to access a high-quality education and it is our responsibility to make that possible. But our nation's are struggling.
▶ 0:16:32Chair Capito: We know from last year's national assessment of progress students are still scoring below pre-pandemic levels and all tested grades and subjects. 35%, one third of our nation eighth-graders, are not reading at the basic level. This is a greater percentage than ever before. We must remain focused on improving outcomes for students.
▶ 0:16:55Chair Capito: That means ensuring students can read at grade level, are prepared for colleges and career, and have opportunities to succeed in a rapidly-changing environment. It is time for the united states to stand on the global stage as a leader in education and reverse the troubling trends we have seen for far too long. Where do we begin? Your leadership has shown that perhaps we need to start by turning to those who know our students best. Our local schools, local teachers, and their parents.
▶ 0:17:26Chair Capito: Federal education spending should be tailored to support states and policies that are responsive to the needs of each student. I'm pleased to see that your budget supports formula grant programs like title I and I dea. These programs provide the much-needed funding for local communities to meet individual needs for their students. I'm pleased to see your budget maintains your support for charter school programs.
▶ 0:17:53Chair Capito: Switching is new to offering charter schools, yet we are already seeing exciting results in the expanded school choice opportunities for public school students. I know the charter school program will benefit students across the nation, much like we have seen in my state. I would like to touch on post secondary education. I will note that before I began my professional -- I began my professional career as a college counselor and advisor.
▶ 0:18:21Chair Capito: In this role I saw how education provides students with life-changing opportunities. I was glad to see that your budget requests funding to support the pal shortage and to maintain the pell grant maximum award. Pell is critical to provide access to post secondary education to our students in west virginia and across the nation who need it most.
▶ 0:18:45Chair Capito: I'm also encouraged by the steps the department has taken to return student loan borrowers to repayment and remind them of the responsibility they take on when taking out a loan. However, after years of borrowers not being required to pay their loans by the prior administration there is more work that needs to be done. Currently more than one out of every four student loan borrowers are delinquent or in default.
▶ 0:19:11Chair Capito: I look forward to the work your department will do to clearly and efficiently correct the unprecedented confusion that our student loan borrowers have faced for years, and importantly put borrowers back on a thoughtful track to repayment. As we move through the fiscally at 2020 seven appropriations process I look for to continued partnership with your department to find a responsible balance between our limited taxpayer resources and supporting the best opportunities for high-quality education.
▶ 0:19:43Chair Capito: The road will be challenging we must forge ahead to deliver our students, who are the future of our great nation. Thank you again for being here and I look for to your testimony and I will turn it over to my ranking member, senator baldwin, for opening statement.
▶ 0:19:56Sen. Baldwin: Good morning, and thank, chair capital. Secretary mcmahon, thank you for being here today. It has been deeply disheartening to see the focus of this administration when it comes to education issues facing our students and our families. Experts have been clear that the steady improvement in student achievement stopped roughly a decade ago and has been in decline since.
▶ 0:20:26Sen. Baldwin: This has been hardest on students federal law is intended to help. Secretary mcmahon, instead of working collaboratively toward solutions to help our students and families you have undertaken a politically-motivated campaign to undermine the work of the department of education. This has been to the detriment of our students and if allowed to continue will have consequences long into the future.
▶ 0:20:52Sen. Baldwin: This includes the termination of $2 billion in grants in the middle of last school year, including grants to expand school-based mental health and special education staff in the state of wisconsin, my home state. It includes illegally withholding more than $7 billion in formula grant funds which states were forced to sue in order to access.
▶ 0:21:18Sen. Baldwin: It includes the abrupt end of 800 million dollars in investments in research and data that support the work of our states and schools. It includes the elimination of funding to address teacher shortages, international education, and eliminating funding for minority student -- minority-serving institutions.
▶ 0:21:45Sen. Baldwin: It also includes a continued focus on illegally dismantling the entire department of education. None of this is about returning education to the states. The things you claim to have returned through waivers and flexibility federal law already allowed. At the same time you are asserting an unprecedented level of control over state and local education decisions.
▶ 0:22:12Sen. Baldwin: You are using the full power of the federal government to require states, school districts, and institutions of higher education to bend to the will of the trump administration or face a loss of federal funding. The department is doing is transferring the vast majority of its programs to other federal departments. Agencies with little experience or expertise, or capacity, to administer them.
▶ 0:22:40Sen. Baldwin: This includes moving programs that support elementary schools to the department of labor. This is not reducing bureaucracy, it is creating more of it, another layer of it. He states primarily dealt with the department of education they will now have to deal with multiple federal agencies. The department claim without evidence success in transferring career and technical education and adult education programs to the department of labor.
▶ 0:23:10Sen. Baldwin: That transfer has not gone smoothly and it has, in fact, cost taxpayers even more. The programs your department next plans to move our orders of magnitude larger and more complex, including programs like title I, impact aid, and trio.
▶ 0:23:31Sen. Baldwin: You are moving those programs at an unknown cost to the department of labor onto a grant system administered by get another agency, the department of health and human services. A grant system that has experienced significant technical difficulties and issues last year that created delays for programs like headstart and community health centers.
▶ 0:24:01Sen. Baldwin: The department has described itself as antiquated. This is a waste of taxpayer resources that creates additional complexity and significant risks for our states and schools, particularly rural schools. It also fundamentally misses the point about the role of the department of education, which is in large part about supporting states and schools and ensuring all students have access to high-quality public education.
▶ 0:24:30Sen. Baldwin: The recent decline in student test scores is very concerning, but it follows steady progress over decades and does not provide evidence that we should eliminate the department of education. To the contrary, the department of education has helped some states but those recent trends. It has helped states and school districts adopt evidence-based approaches through funding, research, and technical assistance to improve student outcomes.
▶ 0:24:59Sen. Baldwin: Instead of building on this work the department is taking away important support while making everything more complicated. And that is not what our states, schools, families, and students need. Now we have before us a budget that proposes massive cuts to public education.
▶ 0:25:17Sen. Baldwin: This budget would raise the cost for families, state and local taxpayers would have to make up for the $6 billion cut to programs supporting 50 million k-12 students served in our nation's public schools. And I will not support a proposal to cut funding to wisconsin for public elementary and secondary education. Your budget request would also make higher education more expensive and harder to access.
▶ 0:25:51Sen. Baldwin: While increased funding for the pell grant program is important, that just maintains current benefits. At the same time, the budget eliminates nearly every other program to help students pursue and afford higher education. Chair capital, I appreciate the work we were able to do together on last year's budget.
▶ 0:26:12Sen. Baldwin: With the support of chair collins and vice chair murray I am committed to working with any member who is serious about developing a fiscal year 2027 appropriations bill that supports our schools and funds the department of education so we can do with the law requires are our students and families. Thank you.
▶ 0:26:34Chair Capito: Thank you, senator baldwin. Now we will turn to our witness. Our witness today is linda mcmahon, who is the secretary of the department of education. Welcome, madam secretary, and we look forward to your opening statement.
▶ 0:26:49Sec. Mcmahon: Thank you, and good morning, chair capital, ranking member baldwin, distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for having me today. Americans reelected president trump with a clear mandate. The sun set a 46-year-old, three trillion dollars failed educational bureaucracy in D.C. and return authority to teacher, and local leaders. Amid debt americans want result.
▶ 0:27:22Sec. Mcmahon: Today I can confidently attest we are delivering on the vision of educational renewal for decades. Many promised, but none have delivered. In the past year I have traveled to over 30 states, seeing firsthand the successes and challenges our education systems faced has reinforced my conviction that empowering local leaders and targeting federal dollars toward evidence-based programs are the force multipliers driving our educational renaissance.
▶ 0:27:51Sec. Mcmahon: To that end, my department has carefully scrutinized every dollar of taxpayer investment to ensure that it supports clear pathways to success for our students and families. We have cut unproductive program funding and redirected those resources to revitalize literacy , invigorate workforce development, and support our most vulnerable students.
▶ 0:28:14Sec. Mcmahon: We have conducted an honest assessment of our operational efficacy, shrunk our bloated bureaucracy, and have secured 10 partnerships with federal agencies well-equipped to coat administer department of education programs. We stopped burdening local leaders with one-size-fits-all mandates and are now empowering them to design solutions that best support their students.
▶ 0:28:36Sec. Mcmahon: For example, we awarded iowa the first-ever returning to the states waiver which frees millions of dollars in compliance costs. This allows iowa to divorce -- devote more resources to proven interventions, like those that lead to their double-digit reading gains. And we continue to work with other states to help them realize their potential for innovation.
▶ 0:29:01Sec. Mcmahon: We are also expanding affordable education options and restoring parents to the rightful role as the primary decision makers in their child's education. Thanks to president trump and republicans in congress the education freedom tax credit gives parents access to critical resources like scholarships, tutoring, and specialized services for students with disabilities. Whether their child attends public or private school.
▶ 0:29:28Sec. Mcmahon: In k-12 and higher education alike the trump administration is restoring safety, fairness, and equal opportunity for our students. In this administration we have secured seven historic deals with universities to right the wrongs of their pervasive civil rights violations we have returned integrity to the broken federal student aid system for the 43 million americans holding an astounding one point $7
▶ 0:29:59Sec. Mcmahon: Trillion in federal student loan debt. I simplified a free application for federal student aid, launched on the earliest timeline in program history, leading to a record 11 million submissions today. We launched a new indicator so students no longer take on significant debt without clear information. And thanks to our strength and security measures we have prevented over one billion dollars in federal student aid fraud so far.
▶ 0:30:27Sec. Mcmahon: We are also hard at work implementing the families tax cuts act which simplifies federal student loan repayment, launches a new work place -- workforce pelt program -- pell program and today we are putting forward a request that accelerates these reforms. This year's budget request maintains funding for the title I grants to local education agencies programs, devoting over $18 billion to serve children from low income families.
▶ 0:30:59Sec. Mcmahon: It includes $33 billion for the pell grant program, which supports low-income students, representing an increase of over $10 billion. It provides $2 billion in new make education grade again grants, and remediate our decades-long academic proficiency crisis.
▶ 0:31:21Sec. Mcmahon: For our students with disabilities and their families the trump administration requests $16 billion for idea programs, which is an increase in more than half $1 billion. We have been clear. Shifting authority back to the states will not come at the expense of federal programs. Much of which predate the department itself. In the trump administration makes promises, we keep them and with your partnership we will unleash momentous opportunity for every child to realize their god-given potential.
▶ 0:31:52Sec. Mcmahon: Thank you, and I look forward to taking your questions.
▶ 0:31:54Chair Capito: Thank you. Thank you, madam secretary. I want to turn to the chair of the full committee, senator collins. We are happy to have her here and she will lead off with the questions. Thank you.
▶ 0:32:07Sen. Collins: Thank you very much, chair capital. Welcome, madam secretary. Madam secretary, the administration's proposing to consolidate important k-12 education programs into one big block grant. To make education grade again grants.
▶ 0:32:33Sen. Collins: Many of these programs are extremely important to our students, including the rural education achievement program that I authored more than two decades ago. To rep present -- to help rural school districts overcome the unique challenges they face. For one, small rural schools do not have grant writers to apply for grants. And they like those resources.
▶ 0:33:08Sen. Collins: We help schools by giving them additional funding and flexibility, eliminating wreath as a separate program puts schools in rural states that a real disadvantage. From my perspective, consolidating 18 programs funded previously at 6.5 billion dollars into one grant program funded at only $2 billion will
▶ 0:33:40Sen. Collins: Undermine the goals of helping our k-12 schools. Protecting rural schools and rural communities has always been one of my top priorities. So, it is critical that we evaluate the impact that the administration's proposal would have on rural schools.
▶ 0:34:02Sen. Collins: How would providing much less funding, going from 6.5 billion to $2 billion and consolidating all of these programs help rural schools?
▶ 0:34:19Sec. Mcmahon: Thank you, senator , for your question, and I know your passion for rural schools throughout maine. One of the points he made about a lot of rural schools don't have red writers and can't bring in those resources that other states might have or other cities might have is part of the program of this consolidation, because there are a lot of states who never participated in any of the grant funding.
▶ 0:34:45Sec. Mcmahon: Under this proposal, with the consolidation, all states will participate in the formulaic distribution of this consolidated grant. Lag knowledge it is not as much money coming into a lot of the different programs, our assessment of many of these programs have meant they have lost their efficacy, and they are really not returning. Giving the returns that we had hoped to see for our rural schools.
▶ 0:35:14Sec. Mcmahon: So, I really believe it is in this consolidation effort have the opportunity for many more schools to take advantage of dollars and to be spent in the areas where they need them. Governors, local school boards, are superintendents of the states can take a look at these dollars that are coming in. They need to be spent more in areas. They can direct that funding to rural areas.
▶ 0:35:39Sec. Mcmahon: If they have adequate school funds in their city or less rural areas they will have the opportunity to take that money and put it where they needed. The goal is to provide more dollars to be spent where governors and state superintendents and even parents participating in local school boards see the need for these dollars to be spent.
▶ 0:36:03Sen. Collins: Well, I hope we can work further on this. The program has been enormously successful and I'm worried it is going to be lost in the consolidation. You and I discussed many times my passion for the trio program. Which has changed the lives of countless first-generation and low income students in maine and across the country.
▶ 0:36:32Sen. Collins: Three of my own staff members are trio alarms, and likely would not have attended college without trio. So, I want to go on record that I oppose the administration's proposal to once again eliminate a program that has made such a difference in the lives of children. I do want to ask you about a specific part of trio.
▶ 0:37:06Sen. Collins: Along with the leaven of my colleagues I recently sent you a letter that expresses concerns about the recently-published applications for the trio talent search and the educational opportunity centers grant competitions.
▶ 0:37:26Sen. Collins: The granta structure outlined in the applications reflects a dramatic shift in the mission and it would redirect funds from the core purpose of the talon church -- talent search and eoc programs. I'm a very strong supporter of -- of apprenticeship programs and other workforce training programs, but that is not what trio is designed for higher education.
▶ 0:37:56Sen. Collins: Ultimately, that leads to workforce improvements and opportunities, but it is designed to promote college awareness, preparation, and completion for low income and first-generation students.
▶ 0:38:16Sen. Collins: The partnership that the department of education has entered into with the department of labor negatively affects these competitions and current grantees in my state, like the university of maine and the university of maine at prescott, are going to be heard -- hurt by the change in focus.
▶ 0:38:40Sen. Collins: Why alter congressional intent for the education opportunity centers and talent search grant competitions? And my second related question is, where the new criteria -- were the new criteria written by the department of labor staff rather than the department of education?
▶ 0:39:02Sec. Mcmahon: Well, in the very limited time I have left, the department of labor did not write this criteria. We have done -- and I understand your passion for trio. We have had many talks about this. I think what we are looking at at the department of education is looking at trio differently, giving it some opportunity to be reformed. Under trio's own metrics it has not achieved its own goals.
▶ 0:39:31Sec. Mcmahon: As we look at it across the country we looked at, ok, how can trio be reformed if we could provide a different kind of opportunity for higher education? Would it necessarily have to be across -- a college degree? Or could there be students who would want to proceed after high school into apprenticeship programs or skilled workforce? This latest experiment with trio, look at it to see if it has different results.
▶ 0:40:01Sec. Mcmahon: I think in this bidding process it was worth taking an opportunity of reform to show that there might be alternatives to higher education other than college, given that we do have a lack of our skilled workforce in the country. So, I appreciate your commitment to trio.
▶ 0:40:18Sec. Mcmahon: I want you to know we are spending about $2.1 million doing research for the programs, to see how the efficacy of them can be improved by their own admission and their own self-reported data they are not meeting their own goals.
▶ 0:40:33Sen. Collins: Well, my time has expired, so we will continue this discussion. Thank you.
▶ 0:40:39Chair Capito: Senator baldwin.
▶ 0:40:41Sen. Baldwin: Thank you, madam chair. Secretary mcmahon, it is a central tenant of yours that you are "returning education to the states." so I would ask, what specifically have you returned to wisconsin through your efforts to dismantle the department of education?
▶ 0:41:00Sec. Mcmahon: Oh, senator, I have been touring states all around the country. I have been out to I think about 34 states. I have looked at middle schools, high schools, public schools, religious schools. I visited institutions of higher education. What we are trying to do is evaluate what they need is for our education across the country and to provide -- my legacy hopefully is going to be toolkits --
▶ 0:41:30Sen. Collins: You have not
▶ 0:41:35Sen. Baldwin: To the states and local school districts that they did not already have. They have been able to always seek waivers under federal law. They have always had primary authority over education decisions, like hiring teachers and choosing curriculum. And they have always had the flexibility noted in your reminder.
▶ 0:41:59Sen. Baldwin: How does reminding states and school districts to interact with multiple federal agencies -- the department of labor, indirectly the department of health and human services, the department of education -- instead of just one agency, how does any of that to anything to return education to the states?
▶ 0:42:16Sec. Mcmahon: Well, first of all, let's look at the first agreement we signed with the department of labor. We have -- we are co-administering that program with the department of labor. And so now, the management of perkins grants, which typically would be two applications from the state, you can go to once -- one place now and it is the same people from the department of education at the department of labor. This is important, if I may.
▶ 0:42:47Sec. Mcmahon: It is not going to various and sundry different agencies. It is dealing with the same people that you have known at the department of education that are located somewhere else.
▶ 0:42:56Sen. Collins: So you are -- let me just --
▶ 0:43:00Sec. Mcmahon: For funding, which you will continue to appropriate, then that will be absolutely --
▶ 0:43:06Sen. Collins: I'm going to cut you off there. You are descent -- you are sending department of education employees to work at other agencies to administer the same programs in different buildings. At best this will prove nothing about what the department of education does, it is making everything more complicated for states and local school districts in the meantime. Secretary, he also abruptly terminated funding for schools in wisconsin and other states during the middle of last school year.
▶ 0:43:36Sen. Collins: Including funding for teacher training and student mental health programs. And you delayed funding for things like afterschool programs just weeks before the start of the school year. There is simply nothing about this that is "returning education to the states.
▶ 0:43:57Sen. Collins: Go secretary mcmahon, the department of labor provides employment and job training services, enforces federal labor laws, and protects retirement and health care benefits of workers. Why are you sending programs that support elementary schools and elementary school students to the department of labor?
▶ 0:44:15Sec. Mcmahon: I certainly do think that as we look at how education should be viewed in our country, clearly there are many aspects of education. It is enrichment of mines, it is development of thought. It is also to provide an opportunity for children once they have finished their education to enter into the workforce --
▶ 0:44:39Sen. Collins: You talking about elementary, k-12. In the -- and the grants you are transferring to the department of labor are much more complex than what the department of labor currently administers. We you aware that the department of labor's office of inspector general has consistently found the department of labor is challenged in effectively managing its grant portfolio?
▶ 0:45:04Sec. Mcmahon: Well, here is what I think.
▶ 0:45:05Sen. Collins: Were you aware of that?
▶ 0:45:08Sec. Mcmahon: Yes. I believe there are opportunities in every agency to improve their grant programs.
▶ 0:45:15Sen. Collins: But you will transfer education department grant programs to a department that is challenged in its current administration of grants?
▶ 0:45:25Sec. Mcmahon: Senator, anytime you are looking to make let's call it a merger -- when you bring two factions together do you believe in the end they are going to be better serving the population that you are looking to serve? There are some hiccups along the way at the beginning, but in the end this is a program I believe will help our students as they go from k-12 to higher education. Be prepared for the workforce of today and the demands of the workforce --
▶ 0:45:53Sen. Collins: Closing of our time.
▶ 0:45:55Sec. Mcmahon: That is why I think labor is an appropriate --
▶ 0:45:59Sen. Collins: Not only are we talking about deficiencies in the department of labor's management of it grant -- its grant program, but the department of labor contracts with the department of health and human services, to use their grant management system. There were technical issues with one of those systems last year which resulted in significant delays of headstart and other funding.
▶ 0:46:22Sec. Mcmahon: Well, I can tell you that our programs have gone out -- our grant programs have gone out on time from labor. -- we have processed requests from over 56 states, over I think it is $30 million at this particular -- I think it is $30 billion at this point. Have gotten those grants out on time, and actually the department of labor has a more advanced system of grant dissemination.
▶ 0:46:50Sen. Collins: Much in dispute, madam secretary.
▶ 0:46:54Sec. Mcmahon: We can stand to agree to disagree on that point, thank you.
▶ 0:46:59Chair Capito: I'm going to stay on the department of labor and the career technical education aspect. I would like to hear from you -- you mentioned how many states have been -- gotten their money through the department of labor. What are the metrics you are using as -- to determine whether this was a successful merger?
▶ 0:47:26Chair Capito: Is it how many students are more self-aware when they want to go to school? They want to go to apprenticeship, do they want to go to higher add to? I think there is obviously workforce programs throughout the government in all different aspects of it that I think it -- I think consolidating these and matching it with education is a natural fit.
▶ 0:47:48Chair Capito: I'm going to assume -- you said 56 entities that you looked at, you said that in your last answer, I think? Obviously not 56 states. We only have 50. You getting complaints about this from the states? I'm asking, what are your metrics, and are you getting complaints from the states that this is not working for them? Because I'm not hearing that from my state.
▶ 0:48:12Sec. Mcmahon: We have not gotten complaints. I think there were concerns at first, were the grants going to go out on time? Where they're going to be issues? In merging two systems and co. Administering this program at labor, clearly there were some hiccups to begin with, which I think would be natural to work out. But we have worked them out.
▶ 0:48:36Sec. Mcmahon: I'm pleased that in terms of the -- the perkins grants, those mergers have gone incredibly well. Getting those grants out the door on time, and states have not issued any kind of complaints. I'm satisfied with how this is working, and as we move --
▶ 0:48:54Chair Capito: Not to interrupt you, but the second part of my question was, what kind of metrics are you looking at to see if this was successful?
▶ 0:49:02Sec. Mcmahon: The metrics are, where they going out on time, without complaints? Just as it would have been at the department of education.
▶ 0:49:10Chair Capito: Let me ask you about student loan repayment. A lot of student loan borrowers were put into the safe program, which was deemed illegal by a federal appeals court. And lots of legal disputes. I mean, total confusion from student borrowers. Do they owe, do they have to pay?
▶ 0:49:33Chair Capito: Many borrowers are enrolled in a forbearance plan but they are going to get instructed that they need to get into a legal repayment program. I was like going? Has it eliminated the confusion? All that is a big thing to tackle. What is it, $1 trillion or something that is owed in this plan?
▶ 0:49:52Sec. Mcmahon: It is a huge portfolio. 1.7 trillion dollars in outstanding debt and only 40% of those pairs are now trying any kind of repayment at all. And who can blame them? Over the last administration, trying to put in the safe act, there were seven or eight different kinds of loan repayment programs.
▶ 0:50:19Sec. Mcmahon: You know, income-based deferments, etc. What happened under the families tax cuts act and the working families tax cuts act is the consolidation now of loans so that there would be two repayment plans put in place. What we are trying to do now is move those who entered into the save program, which is declared unconstitutional, to move them into other repayment programs. Under the new build there will be two.
▶ 0:50:51Sec. Mcmahon: However, until that is in effect in 2028 someone could move out of the current system there in into a different repayment program, which is I think confusing. I would rather see the move into the wrap plan, which gives more -- which gives better terms than some of the current repayment plans, and also if you are making your payments on time you can get credit toward principal. The government will even match some of those payments toward principal.
▶ 0:51:22Sec. Mcmahon: This is going to be, I believe, a much better system for repayment if we can move them into it. Is he going to be better? Of course, it would have to be if you have millions of borrowers who are moving into the safe program and hoping they were not going to have to repay.
▶ 0:51:43Sec. Mcmahon: That got stopped doing covid and it did not get restarted after covid, and it is quite complicated to sort through, but I believe we are making really good progress.
▶ 0:51:54Chair Capito: I wish you luck and give you support on that. I think everybody is confused, and certainly the borrowers. And I am with you. If you didn't think you had to repay or if you thought you were going to get a year, you know, forbearance, why wouldn't you do that?
▶ 0:52:10Sec. Mcmahon: There were people since 2020 who have borrowed money who have made no payments for over six years.
▶ 0:52:16Chair Capito: Thank you. Senator shaheen.
▶ 0:52:19Sen. Shaheen: Thank you, madam chair, and ranking member baldwin. Come, secretary mcmahon. If you for the opportunity to talk to your last week. I want to start by following up on senator collins' questions about the trio and year out programs. You said you had metrics that show those programs are not successful.
▶ 0:52:44Sen. Shaheen: But I have metrics that say, according to the evaluators, the pel institute and the institute of college success and access, in evaluating trio that their higher rates of retention for students in higher education, they have higher graduation, earn a bachelors degree of twice the rate of non-trio students.
▶ 0:53:12Sen. Shaheen: I hope you will chill them -- share the metrics you have that would show these programs are not successful and I would just point out anecdotally we heard from one trio alum from new hampshire, she writes, my childhood was a gauntlet of domestic violence, alcoholism, and poverty. My upward bound summer literally pulled me out of a toxic environment and showed me that different life was possible.
▶ 0:53:42Sen. Shaheen: I trio mentors stayed by my side, helping me navigate the applications and fees that would have otherwise been impossible barriers. I went from a kid stealing food to survive to creator of knowledge conducting high-level research. Since her trio experiences heather has earned two bachelor degrees, two masters degrees, and a phd. And she finishes her story with this statement. Trio transforms public investment into long-term economic and civic return.
▶ 0:54:12Sen. Shaheen: I am living proof, and I am forever grateful. Madam secretary, is it the intent of this administration to eliminate the trio and gear out programs and other programs that help students who are at risk from accessing higher education?
▶ 0:54:30Sec. Mcmahon: Senator shaheen, thank you very much for laying that. That is a great success story for the trio program and I'm sure there are many of those around the country. However she let -- however --
▶ 0:54:46Sen. Shaheen: The evaluation shows that they have been very successful.
▶ 0:54:50Sec. Mcmahon: Well, the metrics I get, which are the self-reported metrics from trio, as we look at their percentage of graduation rates, etc., they are falling short
▶ 0:55:04Sen. Shaheen: Could you please share those with the committee?
▶ 0:55:07Sec. Mcmahon: I would be happy to.
▶ 0:55:09Sen. Shaheen: Is it the intent to get rid of this program?
▶ 0:55:12Sec. Mcmahon: As a mentioned before we are spending about 2.1 million dollars evaluating trio and looking to see if it should be result -- revived. I am sure that the appropriations committee, which they did last year, if congress chooses, to fund the trio then we will work very closely with you to see what reforms we can do to make it better. If, in fact, it is better.
▶ 0:55:39Sec. Mcmahon: But right now it is costing -- it is a high cost to have trio programs --
▶ 0:55:44Sen. Shaheen: It may be a high cost, but this congress passed the president's one big, beautiful bill, which provided a tax cut for people to annual income over $1 million and it is costing the taxpayers over $1 trillion. His added $4.6 trillion to the federal deficit.
▶ 0:56:01Sen. Shaheen: I think comparing that the cost of trio and gear up programs, which each cost $1.2 billion annually and provide opportunities for thousands of young people to better themselves is a much better balance of payments. I would like to go on to another question.
▶ 0:56:21Sen. Shaheen: One of the topics you talked about, your effort to respond better to address challenges with various programs in the department, one of the topics that my office gets a lot of calls about is the public service loan forgiveness buyback program, which is administered by the department of education.
▶ 0:56:44Sen. Shaheen: What we hear from applicants is that they have heard from your department that they will get their applications answered within 45 days. But my staff tells me it is often nine months to a year before my constituents get a substantive response. We currently have over 70 constituents waiting just in our office for answers about their applications.
▶ 0:57:08Sen. Shaheen: Nationally there are over 88 thousand applicants waiting to hear from the department, and that number has grown by 4000 since february. So, can you talk about how you intend to deal with this backlog?
▶ 0:57:26Sen. Shaheen: I understand the part of your plan is to have the treasury department take over these responsibilities, yet the treasury department doesn't seem to have the personnel, resources, and expertise to administer the program. So, how are you expecting to address that?
▶ 0:57:42Sec. Mcmahon: Well, treasury is really down the road for dealing with this and we have been looking at this buyback program, which was established, really, under the prior administration with a lot of regulations involved, and it was not established by law. There is an 88,000 backlog, and it is very complex to verify the employment of all the people writing in. It is tedious to do. We are addressing this backlog and want to make sure that we can have a long-term solution to fix it.
▶ 0:58:14Sen. Shaheen: I think a long-term solution would be great. I think a solution has been around longer than the previous administration. Thank you, madam chair.
▶ 0:58:24Chair Capito: Senator kennedy.
▶ 0:58:27Sen. Kennedy: Madam secretary, first I want to make it clear that my remarks do not refer to my good friend, senator shaheen. I want to start by saying one person's opinion. You are so cool. Literally and figuratively. They call you names and you just ignore them.
▶ 0:58:57Sen. Kennedy: I also want to say from the record, I don't think we ought to mislead the american people. This isn't your budget. This budget was put together by omb in the white house. Every white house does it, sends us a budget, we take a look at it. Some of it we adopt, most of it we ignore. So, all of this playacting for the cameras is just that, playacting. I want to take you down memory lane.
▶ 0:59:26Sen. Kennedy: I'm going to come back to the extraordinary job you have done at the department of education. Which was, when you took it over, was the poster child -- the poster child -- for access federal government. Chock full of a bunch woke race baiters whose job was to get in the way of our teachers. And our teachers' aides.
▶ 0:59:55Sen. Kennedy: But I want to take you down memory lane, because you have done this despite all of the obstacles. Do you remember when my colleague senator schumer said the following -- I'm going to quote. "americans don't want a radical, out of touch billionaire slashing funding for public schools. Linda mcmahon is not qualified to lead america's public education, but that is why trump nominated her.
▶ 1:00:23Sen. Kennedy: She is the perfect choice to burn our public education system to the ground or go do you remember -- ground.". Do you remember that?
▶ 1:00:33Sec. Mcmahon: I do.
▶ 1:00:35Sen. Kennedy: Do you remember when congress, when mark pocan -- I could be mispronouncing his name, if so I apologize -- said, "linda mcmahon should stick to wrestling."
▶ 1:00:50Sec. Mcmahon: Do your member that?
▶ 1:00:52Sen. Kennedy: I actually don't member that one.
▶ 1:00:56Sen. Kennedy: Boy, you can only be young once. Boy, you can always be immature, can't you? Do you remember when the nation magazine -- very democratic magazine -- published an article entitled "linda mcmahon's only qualification as education secretary is a history of spreading eight -- hate?
▶ 1:01:24Sen. Kennedy: " this is what they said. She is 76 years old and wants her legacy to be turning the bigotry that made her so seemly rich into public policy. She is a simpleton. My god. I want you to spend -- I want extra time, madam chair. Anybody else has gotten it.
▶ 1:01:52Sen. Kennedy: I have been so impressed with the work you have done in lifting up elementary and secondary education and trying to whittle down that giant rogue beast that we called the department of education. The work you have done on school choice and returning authority back to the states and local government and fighting anti-semitism and fighting for women's' sports. In a couple of minutes, tell me about your comp judgments.
▶ 1:02:23Sen. Kennedy: I know you can't do it in two minutes.
▶ 1:02:25Sec. Mcmahon: Well, thank you very much, and I'm glad I don't remember a lot of those quotes.
▶ 1:02:30Sen. Kennedy: Oh, there is more. They hit you with everything but a chair. It is disgusting.
▶ 1:02:35Sec. Mcmahon: I can tell you what I believe. We have accomplished a lot. As I mentioned prior to visiting so many states and to see what kinds of education systems many of those states have, from classical education, from that I saw in florida, and other states.
▶ 1:02:57Sec. Mcmahon: To states that have really accepted returning their reading programs to evidence-based phonics, and we have seen their response to that from many states who are looking out to pick those same programs into numeracy, to make sure that the map scores are coming up.
▶ 1:03:14Sec. Mcmahon: When you walk into a department and the president of the united states has told you he was embarrassed and ashamed by the state of education in our country and not only across the country, but in its place in the world, and he expects you to do something to make a difference in that because what we have been doing is not working.
▶ 1:03:35Sec. Mcmahon: The innovations we have seen to bring the level of schools' reading and math programs up -- innovations in the states don't come from the bureaucracy in washington, D.C.. What I hope to do is put together a toolkit, to leave behind and share with the states, this is what is working, these are some of the things we have seen. The mississippi miracle. Mississippi was next to last in reading. You know that very well, senator.
▶ 1:04:03Sec. Mcmahon: And through their own invention -- it took about 10 years, but they didn't give up and the steps they took and made, louisiana adopted, florida adopted, tennessee, other states. We have seen through the states' innovation and continuing funding which will continue to fund through -- to come through government programs they have made a difference. And that is why states are the center of what has been successful for them.
▶ 1:04:31Sec. Mcmahon: Whether it is looking at their children, you know, with disabilities, that is why in our budget proposal we have asked for the largest increase -- you know, $500 million to go into idea funding, because there are more students who need these. I think we have made some incredibly significant -- significant accompaniments and we have only just begun.
▶ 1:04:57Sec. Mcmahon: I have only been here a little bit over a year but we are on the road to continue to look at the states and what we need to help them to take on more these programs. These programs that are federal will stay in the federal government. Title viii stays in the federal government. Idea stays in the government to send it directly to the states. I'm pleased with where we have come so far, but we clearly have a lot of work yet to do.
▶ 1:05:21Sen. Kennedy: Thank you for your service.
▶ 1:05:24Chair Capito: Senator merkley.
▶ 1:05:27Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much, madam chair, and thank you, madam secretary. A year ago when you get testimony about the program not working I asked you if you had read the departments studies on it. Having now read those studies?
▶ 1:05:42Sec. Mcmahon: I'm sorry, which program?
▶ 1:05:44Sen. Merkley: The trio programs.
▶ 1:05:46Sec. Mcmahon: I have read many of the studies which were self-reported by trio.
▶ 1:05:51Sen. Merkley: Great. I'm glad you have.
▶ 1:05:53Sec. Mcmahon: Because there is no audit capability that we have.
▶ 1:05:57Sen. Merkley: Thank you, because the department's own studies show an extraordinary record of success. When I think about the fact that you have 30. -- 33% more likely to enroll in college, that you have the upward bound students twice as likely to earn a bachelor's degree, that you have the veterans upward bound 27 -- 25% more likely to earn a degree, etc., I believe you were the first in your family to go to college?
▶ 1:06:26Sec. Mcmahon: That is correct.
▶ 1:06:28Sen. Merkley: As was I. I come from a very new caller, homesteading background. And I knew nothing about the world of college. I stumbled into someone mentioning a deadline for college applications. I then stumbled into an assistant superintendent who advised me to apply to some colleges that had those early deadlines.
▶ 1:06:56Sen. Merkley: But it is from that perspective that I believe having conscious programs to help people overcome the cultural chasm that exists between blue-collar kids like myself and that college world that you have very little contact on, is enormously valuable in america, and the stats from these programs are pretty impressive.
▶ 1:07:19Sen. Merkley: I did want to draw your attention to the letter that senator collins and senator warnock sent about making this point and encouraging you to keep and increase and improve these programs. Six republican senators. Six democrats. That is as bipartisan as it gets. Folks from extraordinarily different backgrounds same this program has merit, and I would like to submit this for the record, please.
▶ 1:07:47Chair Capito: Without objection.
▶ 1:07:49Sen. Merkley: Thank you. I want to emphasize the point that senator collins was making an senator shaheen was making. Look at your own studies. Talk to the trio kids who come from these different backgrounds. Had no idea like I had no idea what college was about, who found a pathway. And I got lucky.
▶ 1:08:09Sen. Merkley: I stumbled into folks who gave me insight, but getting lucky shouldn't be necessary way to bridge the chasm between the blue-collar non-college communities like I grew up in and the college community and that opportunity. I do understand and I support passionately the career and technical education programs, but we already have those. Let's enhance those programs that are working, not this program, which serves a different function.
▶ 1:08:38Sen. Merkley: Second, I wanted to address the nursing education and student loans. Created a new federal loan limit for graduate and professional borrowers. This is for federal loans. In the rule you have put for you created a distinction for postgraduate nursing students and said basically they are going to be capped at $20,000, $500 annually.
▶ 1:09:03Sen. Merkley: There is a tremendous concern that those caps are going to decimate the ability for folks to be able to get post nursing degrees. There is 150 members of congress who signed a letter pointing this out. It is a very bipartisan letter as well. So, I will submit for the record that letter.
▶ 1:09:28Chair Capito: Without objection.
▶ 1:09:30Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much, madam chairman. Even our short -- health-care workers, why you targeting nurses as we face these dire health care and trying to prevent people from getting these graduate degrees?
▶ 1:09:46Sec. Mcmahon: Thank you for that question. Certainly, nurses are not being targeted. This is part of rulemaking regulation that is still in the process of rulemaking. Not quite finished, but this is not in any way to cast any kind of aspersions or any kind of review of the nursing programs. Or other of health service programs that have come under regulation for postgraduate degrees.
▶ 1:10:15Sec. Mcmahon: It is simply by the definition that congress itself wrote into the regulation of what is considered a professional degree. By putting caps on some of those professions that don't fall into the category that has been absolutely determined by congress under the regulatory environment, we hope to bring down the cost of college -- if I may, this is important.
▶ 1:10:41Sen. Merkley: I only have a few seconds. I hear your point. Thank you. I hear your point. Thank you. Here is the thing. The oba bill did not make these distinctions. It is your rule that is proposing this distinction, so I would encourage you to look at the oba language. Secondly, the argument is that -- if I was making your case for you, that by reducing the loan somehow people will get their degree for cheaper.
▶ 1:11:12Sen. Merkley: That is not what happens. What happens is, they have to go from the federal loans that have a lower interest rate to the private loans that have a much higher interest rate, and that makes it much less affordable and much less appealing to pursue these degrees. So, it really has a devastating impact the only people who are helped by that strategy are the private loan companies that make a lot more money. That is not helping our health care system. Thank you, madam chair.
▶ 1:11:36Sec. Mcmahon: I can tell you our research has showed that over 90% of the nursing graduate programs in our country can be achieved for less than $100,000. 100,000 dollars under this bill is the cap for the graduate program, as it is defined by congress.
▶ 1:11:55Sec. Mcmahon: Therefore, one of the goals -- hopefully, hopefully -- is to help colleges see these incredible costs of college -- that 10% that is not doing it -- and help bring college costs down.
▶ 1:12:09Sec. Mcmahon: You can go to one college and get a degree that the nursing program is going to cost $200,000 and another well-qualified college can deliver the same degree for $85,000, then it gives consumers an opportunity to choose and making them aware of what these different costs of these programs are. As I say, we are still in rulemaking. It is not final, but the final rulemaking will be soon.
▶ 1:12:33Sen. Merkley: Madam chair, may I make a note on that? There is also waste a master limit. These nursing programs are three semesters, so it becomes the annual limit that you might be thinking applies to two semesters, it covers three. That annual limit, virtually no nursing programs apart from public programs meets that, so I think your analysis is completely wrong. This is completely damaging and I encourage you to take a look for you do the final rule.
▶ 1:13:03Sen. Merkley: >> thank you so much for being here. We appreciate all of your hard work. I do want to associate myself with those who are in support of the trio. The trio programs in arkansas have been a game changer in allowing first-generation students not only access higher education but also succeeded once they are there.
▶ 1:13:30Sen. Merkley: I appreciate the conversations we have had regarding and surrounding and strengthening trio, and I hope we can continue to collaborate to ensure these programs continue to effectively serve students who need them most. I also want to thank you for being in little rock and doing a roundtable. That was very much appreciated, and I think -- I think everyone enjoyed it.
▶ 1:13:58Sen. Merkley: Across the country too many students are not proficient in reading and math. Arkansas has made a strong commit to the science of reading to ensure students are reading on grade level by third grade and appreciate the department's recognition of that work.
▶ 1:14:15Sen. Merkley: Can you outline how the department plans to support states implementing evidence-based literacy strategies, particularly in rural communities, and help drive a return to fundamentals that improve outcomes?
▶ 1:14:30Sec. Mcmahon: Well, as you know, the department of education really does not control curriculum. But what our support is,the $2 e have talked about under our budget proposal, we are asking and requiring that 25% of that grant for the state to receive that money be reserved for literacy education and another
▶ 1:15:00Sec. Mcmahon: 25% for numeracy, encouraging them to adopt their programs and to be able to do the research. I think that is showing the department's focus on making sure these perp -- programs can be looked at in developing because there is so much that has proved a success and efficacy of these programs. Many states are adopting and putting them into place. Governors are competitive. Superintendent of schools are competitive.
▶ 1:15:29Sec. Mcmahon: They don't want other states to succeed and get ahead of them, especially with programs that are working and have -- and how they can be incorporated into their states and have their teachers and participate in programs to learn how to teach these new systems. I have now in my opportunity of visiting schools, I've been in schools where teachers are actually, again, teaching phonetic sounding of words. So students can decode these words and are really learning to read faster.
▶ 1:15:58Sec. Mcmahon: Many of them reading proficiently at the end of first grade and not waiting until third grade to be proficient. We know the system works. We want to encourage states to adopt these. We want to help through the grant process and with these caveats and reserving these amounts of money emphasizes the importance of states accepting these programs.
▶ 1:16:19Sen. Boozman: We frequently hear from advocacy groups representing vulnerable populations of students with disability and low income students. I want to give you the opportunity to share with everyone how your budget proposal prioritizes and protects those students.
▶ 1:16:36Sec. Mcmahon: From low income?
▶ 1:16:38Sen. Boozman: Yes. Disabilities.
▶ 1:16:43Sec. Mcmahon: Title a is uncha nged. Folks can understand we are not in any way impacting that were asking for any kind of reduction. We have historic recommendation for ida funding, which is $500 million more for students with disabilities.
▶ 1:17:12Sec. Mcmahon: Also, in the one big beautiful bill or the working families tax cut program, as we look at the adoption of the tax-free portion of granting states the opportunity to opt into the programs whereby the private sector can contribute money to scholarship granting organizations, that is money that comes in from the private sector not from taxpayer dollars.
▶ 1:17:43Sec. Mcmahon: Those scholarship granting organizations can also then give money to families who are applying for those loans and student that have disabilities could get special services, additional equipment they need. Governors have to opt into these programs. I can't imagine why a governor would not but there are opportunities for our children with disabilities to have improvements.
▶ 1:18:09Sen. Boozman: Thank you, madam chair.
▶ 1:18:12Chair Capito: Senator murray.
▶ 1:18:15Sen. Murray: Thank you. I don't think the solution to helping kids who are falling behind is to destroy the department of education that I know you and the president seem to think that is a solution. I think that is kind of stunning because I hear from teachers and parents in my state, hey, you know what I need? Less funding. I don't hear people saying that.
▶ 1:18:41Sen. Murray: I don't hear people saying, I was the federal government would do less to help student borrowers. But that is what you're proposing in this budget. Turned down the department of education even more. Why? So we have more money to throw at the pentagon. Trillions of dollars. Half $1 trillion. As a former preschool teacher, maybe I'm biased but I think giving all kids from every one of them, a brighter future is really more important than shoveling money at defense contractors. But that is what is being proposed.
▶ 1:19:12Sen. Murray: Let me start with this. Look, I am concerned you are not listening to parents of children with disabilities and their profound objections to moving ida and re-habilitation out of the department of education. I've gotten a petition from thousands of parents, advocates, who are concerned that will undermine 50 years of progress in making sure the rights of children and students with disabilities are met.
▶ 1:19:41Sen. Murray: I wanted to ask you today, what is the status of moving programs for children and students with disabilities out of the department of education?
▶ 1:19:49Sec. Mcmahon: Currently, we are still evaluating where this programs would best be located. We have not made that determination yet. We are looking at the department of labor for some of its programs and also looking at hhs for potential home for some of this programs. I can assure you the intent of this administration is not to put these students at risk in any way whatsoever.
▶ 1:20:19Sec. Mcmahon: I have not received thousands of applications that you have but I have met with parent groups all over the country who have children with disabilities. We have talked about what they need. I have said to each of them, who is better positioned to know what your children need then you working with them and then working with your local school board?
▶ 1:20:40Sen. Murray: That is exactly why these parents and advocates are spitting mad because what they want to make sure is their child with disability has an education. And moving it out of the department of education is not only undermining that, but a direct message to them that their health is more important in their education. Parents are taking care of their health. They want their kids to get a good education and that is why I am hearing from so many parents.
▶ 1:21:07Sen. Murray: I am deeply concerned your answer sounds like you are still moving ahead. Let's make it clear that will break the law and make it a lot harder for these students with disabilities to get the education and understanding their country will stand behind them.
▶ 1:21:22Sec. Mcmahon: I just have to object your framing of this. First of all, it is not against the law. Secondly, these parents need to understand regardless of which department these programs are located, they will still get --.
▶ 1:21:38Sen. Murray: The department of education says education is a priority. That is her concern. Let me move on. I have several other questions. A little over a year ago, you made the decision to eliminate more than half the stuff in the office of civil rights and close half of the regional field offices. Now you have testified repeatedly that students won't even notice your efforts to abolish the department.
▶ 1:22:03Sen. Murray: I would like to hear you tell that to the students and parents who have yet to hear anything about their case, let alone have a be fully investigated and resolved. You know in president trump's first year of his first term, ocr result about 60 sexual harassment cases and 15 sexual assault cases. Can you tell me how many of these cases were resolved in the first year of this term?
▶ 1:22:29Sec. Mcmahon: I can tell you what we are doing with our ocr program. We are moving forward.
▶ 1:22:36Sen. Murray: I asked about --
▶ 1:22:38Sec. Mcmahon: We inherited thousands of backlog cases from the biden administration.
▶ 1:22:45Sen. Murray: How many were resolved last year?
▶ 1:22:46Sec. Mcmahon: I have hired into the department of education who was the --
▶ 1:22:56Sen. Murray: I have more questions so I want to ask you the question I asked. How many cases were resolved last year?
▶ 1:23:00Sec. Mcmahon: We are moving to resolve as many cases as we can. We are bringing back many of those lawyers which were part of that. There was a time when we were not processing cases as quickly as we should but we are now focused on doing that and moving forward with the expertise --
▶ 1:23:19Sen. Murray: The answer to my question for the record is zero.
▶ 1:23:22Sec. Mcmahon: We are moving forward to resolve those cases today.
▶ 1:23:27Sen. Murray: As of this morning, 1% of all cases last year were resolved. 78% fewer cases were resolved than the year before. We have to understand what that means is kids are being denied equal access to education. They are entitled it to under law. There also being denied the justice they dessert. You said you are hiring people back.
▶ 1:23:51Sen. Murray: I would to see those numbers and see what cases are being resolved because I think it is our responsibility to make sure the kids get the education they are promised.
▶ 1:23:59Sec. Mcmahon: I would be anxious to share this with you.
▶ 1:24:03Sen. Murray: Right now it is zero.
▶ 1:24:05Sec. Mcmahon: I would be happy to share that with you.
▶ 1:24:08Sen. Murray: Just telling this committee it is going to happen someday to me is not making sure those kids get it.
▶ 1:24:13Sec. Mcmahon: I've hired the person back who made all of those things work in the trump administration. Inherited 19,000 from the biden administration. As a full on attack now to resolve these cases. We are moving forward.
▶ 1:24:30Sen. Murray: For the record, we expect to see progress.
▶ 1:24:33Sec. Mcmahon: So do I.
▶ 1:24:37Sen. Murray: I'm glad to hear that. You've decided to move the title I program to the department of labor we had you decided that agency, which by the way has no experience making sure families and students can meaningfully participate in their child's education. Meanwhile, you're moving other parent and family engagement programming to hhs.
▶ 1:25:00Sen. Murray: Just for everyone to understand, if you are a superintendent looking for resources to help get parents more involved in their kids education, you have to contact at least three different federal agencies to get an answer. How does that split help parents get involved in their kids schools? How does that create efficiency?
▶ 1:25:19Sec. Mcmahon: Well, what we're going to do is make sure that kids have the same access they need. Let me just backup for one second and I'll take a minute to do that. The implication is we just pick up a program out of the department, stick it in another department. That is not how it works.
▶ 1:25:43Sec. Mcmahon: The people managing the functions in the department of education are being detailed to the other departments so the contacts these parents have had from the numbers come emails they have to reach out to our the same. They're just located in a different agency.
▶ 1:25:57Sen. Murray: It is clear right now you have to contact three different agencies read sec.
▶ 1:26:02Mcmahon: That is incorrect.
▶ 1:26:04Sen. Murray: It is correct.
▶ 1:26:05Sec. Mcmahon: It is not.
▶ 1:26:08Sen. Murray: We have a disagreement.
▶ 1:26:10Sec. Mcmahon: We will agree to disagree because you are incorrect.
▶ 1:26:14Sen. Murray: I just think students in our country absolutely are being hurt by the actions we are seeing right now and the budget that is in front of us makes it even worse. We have to train our teachers and provide access for students. This budget I believe leaves kids behind. We have a lot of work in our appropriations committee to make sure we meet the demands of families, and I will work with this committee to make sure we do that. Thank you.
▶ 1:26:40Sec. Mcmahon: I would like one more response and that is we have been doing the same thing since 1980, since this department was developed. Scores have gone down. Kids have not improved. We've had some good programs in place and we want to continue and evaluate them and make sure those programs can continue and be enhanced. But I have to tell you, we have failed generations of our children who cannot read and write.
▶ 1:27:08Sen. Murray: We have a difference of opinion on how to make clear we are working toward that goal. Having worked on many budgets and many authorization programs to continue our work to do that, I don't think just -- dismantling the department of education is the right goal.
▶ 1:27:23Chair Capito: Senator husted.
▶ 1:27:27Sen. Husted: Thank you for being here. I have spent pretty much the majority of my adult life working on education and workforce policy and have visited untold numbers of schools in my life. Some of them doing amazing work and some of them really struggle. I will tell you from my experience, most all of the funding that get spent in education and workforce is state and local money. The federal government contributes very little to the overall cause.
▶ 1:27:57Sen. Husted: When we found federal government programs actually helped us, it was a surprise. I would argue in this changing time of education with ai and other things that are going to happen in terms of how we educate students and what they need to learn and maximum flexibility is very important. I know that is your goal. I believe educators at the state and local level will ultimately appreciate that.
▶ 1:28:24Sen. Husted: But I want to focus on the provision in the working family tax-cut plan on workforce tell. Employers, I know this from talking with them and working with him on a regular basis, are prioritizing skills over degrees .
▶ 1:28:44Sen. Husted: You need skills over degrees in terms of how technology is playing its role in our workforce and the working family tax-cut plan with the workforce pell allows for pell grants to be given for credentials and skills that will focus on in-domain jobs and high wage jobs. I keep hearing, is are going to be enough money in the pell program to find that?
▶ 1:29:13Sen. Husted: Can you provide some reassurance on there will be enough money in the pell program to fund the new workforce pell plus the other things people are asking for?
▶ 1:29:22Sec. Mcmahon: That is what we proposed in our budget. It is to fund that shortfall and to make sure there is the money for workforce pell continuance of the maximum amount, can continue to go to those recipients on only in the balance of this year but also 2027-2028. We want to make sure that program can continue.
▶ 1:29:52Sec. Mcmahon: It is so vital and important to so many.
▶ 1:29:55Sen. Husted: I can tell you our community colleges are very excited about this and our local workforce boards are excited about it because the idea we can target some of these pell moneys to the students who need it, can earn a credential and go to work because they don't have time to maybe spend two or four years. They need a job. This will help them get the skills to get a job, help contribute to the local economy. I am really glad to hear you have the resources in this budget to fund that.
▶ 1:30:24Sen. Husted: But I also know this, when he set up a new stream of funding, there is going to figure out how to scan it. I want to encourage the rules be written to focus on making sure that we are gearing those dollars for students who are going to earn credentials that are actually valued in the workforce and will translate to a job and a pathway forward.
▶ 1:30:49Sen. Husted: But it brings me to my next question because I know senator tuberville and I are working on a task force to prevent fraud in education. Can you talk with us other initiatives you're doing to make sure we are not being scammed in the money is going to where it needs to be focused?
▶ 1:31:06Sec. Mcmahon: Let me focus for one minute on the fafsa application process for student loans to go to college. One of the things we found as we put in our new process and as we revamp the entire system, we found out that through a high that bots were getting loans, ghost students were getting loads not only in our country but applying outside of our country and getting loans here.
▶ 1:31:33Sec. Mcmahon: We have already saved $1 billion through new credential verification in the fafsa program and I believe we had a press release that went out yesterday or today even talking about the new program that we were putting in place for colleges and universities online so someone has to show their id online. It was also a backward looking program for grants that had already been processed.
▶ 1:32:02Sec. Mcmahon: We have already discovered another 400,000 and attempted fraudulent applications through the fafsa process. We are making great headway in preventing dollars going out the door that would be through pell or for other applications into college. This is a really, really big announcement and headway.
▶ 1:32:27Sen. Husted: If you want to trust the funding, have to trust the money is being spent properly. One last quick question, no career tech money, adult education money is being sent over to the department of labor. Which can be perfectly appropriate thing to do since we are talking about labor workforce skills. Are you confident this funding stream for the vital programs will not be disrupted?
▶ 1:32:49Sec. Mcmahon: Yes. It is going out the door as it should for these grants, already 56 states and territories. I noticed when senator computers that we only have 50 states, their territories as well.
▶ 1:33:04Sen. Husted: Thank you.
▶ 1:33:04Chair Capito: Senator murphy.
▶ 1:33:07Sen. Murphy: Thank you. I wanted to tell you a quick story so you can understand why senator murray and many of us on this committee care deeply about what you have been doing to try to destroy the office of civil rights. Any cup is apparent in indiana. She was very alarmed when her daughter came home one day with severe bruising on her hands and arms. Her daughter has severe autism.
▶ 1:33:37Sen. Murphy: A group of different disabilities. What she came to find out is the school that her daughter was at had been restraining and secluded in her daughter. In fact, her daughter spent 23 hours over 29 different times in what the school referred to as the "blue room in a padded room in which this girl was thrown in by herself and spent 23 hours in the first few months of her
▶ 1:34:10Sen. Murphy: Sixth grade year. This family got no resolution from the school district so they went to the office of civil rights. Her case was proceeding until you are sworn in. When you are sworn in, their case ended. They were given a notice that the chicago field office was shut down and there would be no further processing of their case. They went to court along with many other families. I heard you say to senator murray that things are getting better at ocr and you are now processing cases again.
▶ 1:34:40Sen. Murphy: My understanding is you are doing that not out of your own volition that because the parents sued you and the court found you are in gross violation of the law having fired half the attorneys at the office, having closed down all of these field offices parents rely on. What was going on in 2025? Why did you decide to shut down these field offices, to illegally fire half the attorneys?
▶ 1:35:09Sen. Murphy: I hear you and want to believe you that things are going to get better, but obviously, you spent an entire year trying to eliminate the functions of this office. I will give you a numerical example. In connecticut, your home state, when you came into office, there were 127 pending claims at ocr. Half of them were kids with disabilities who were relying on you to help them.
▶ 1:35:34Sen. Murphy: Do you know how many cases got resolved positively for families in connecticut in 2025? Zero. Not a single child got a positive resolution, got help from the department of education having filed a disability claim in 2025. That is unacceptable. Tell me why you did that. Am I wrong the only reason you are restarting anything at ocr is because the court is telling you you have to do it?
▶ 1:36:03Sec. Mcmahon: You are clearly wrong about that, senator. We definitely did not shut down the department of civil rights at the department of education. Before I got there, and the riff happened I think a week after I was sworn in, but the process had been in place to reduce greatly the department of education, the number of people there under stringent budgetary
▶ 1:36:34Sec. Mcmahon: Requirements we were given. And so this was part of a riff that happened but we were in the process of looking at how to make sure our office of civil rights was in fact going to be able to handle cases trying to make sure we could get as many of them handled as possible. So that is why can riff he was brought back from a part of the reason why she was brought back. I found her because she had been the most effective person in the pro-trump administration -- it is important --
▶ 1:37:07Sen. Murphy: You resolved not a single case in connecticut in 2025. How do you defend that? Not a single child got a positive resolution for the discrimination claims. 70 of them had disabilities. How do you defend that?
▶ 1:37:28Sec. Mcmahon: It is difficult except to note that those things were happening. We look forward to make sure they stop happening.
▶ 1:37:38Sen. Murphy: But you fired half the department.
▶ 1:37:40Sec. Mcmahon: That is hindsight.
▶ 1:37:44Sen. Murphy: What does that mean?
▶ 1:37:45Sec. Mcmahon: You know perfectly well. We brought people on board to handle these cases because I believe they should be handled. We should be finding resolutions to them. Those attorneys are being brought back.
▶ 1:37:59Sen. Murphy: How many have been brought back?
▶ 1:38:00Sec. Mcmahon: All the ones who were fired that did not take early retirement came back. In this budget we have more money to hire more lawyers.
▶ 1:38:09Sen. Murphy: This budget proposes a 35% reduction to the office of civil rights. That is my final question.
▶ 1:38:14Sec. Mcmahon: But it is a budget of increasing dollars in several ways.
▶ 1:38:20Sen. Murphy: No, it's not. This budget has a 35% proposed reduction for the office of civil rights.
▶ 1:38:27Sec. Mcmahon: We are moving forward to make sure --.
▶ 1:38:30Sen. Murphy: Let's just --
▶ 1:38:33Sec. Mcmahon: Let's agree to the facts.
▶ 1:38:38Sen. Murphy: You will agree this is your proposing to reduce it by 35%.
▶ 1:38:44Sec. Mcmahon: I'm not agreeing to that. Here's what I'm saying. We are bringing back lawyers. We are hiring new lawyers to address this back load with the person who had been so successful before in getting this done. When she left office, there was a 4500 backlog and now from the biden administration there are 19,000 more.
▶ 1:39:07Sec. Mcmahon: We are addressing them for rapid mediation, expanded resolution, multiregional teams that we have now put back in place. Addressing the issues that happened in the past --.
▶ 1:39:20Sen. Murphy: It is --.
▶ 1:39:24Sec. Mcmahon: We are inadequate.
▶ 1:39:27Sen. Murphy: Did you want to make one last --
▶ 1:39:29Chair Capito: Senator britt.
▶ 1:39:34Sen. Britt: Adam secretary, thank you for your time today. I realize the department of education is actively investigating brown university in light of the tragic murders that occurred on campus last december and you might be limited in what you can share. Public reporting from local stations and student news outlets has made it clear to me that the murder of ella cook, her fellow classmate, and the wounding of nine others, were entirely preventable.
▶ 1:40:06Sen. Britt: They were predictable result of more than a decade of ideological degradation and the vilification of police and law enforcement at brown. In 2013, student activists demanded and ultimately accomplished the cancellation of a lecture titled "proactive policing in america's biggest city." this was to be done by then current nypd commissioner.
▶ 1:40:36Sen. Britt: Brown responded not only by canceling that up I ramping up dei infrastructure and campus climate work to address the "racial justice concerns" the protesters raised. Throughout the fall of 2015, student activists demanded the university further emphasize and invest in dei practices, criticizing brown's $100 million plan to "improve race relations" as insufficient.
▶ 1:41:08Sen. Britt: The following year, brown formally announced it would invest $165 million in dei and strip away its proactive policing protocol and replace it with "community service models." in 2020, brown declared its department of public safety would adopt a "phased approach to reducing reliance on police."
▶ 1:41:41Sen. Britt: In 2021, the university received a bomb threat from a caller who claimed to have placed bombs throughout campus and said to be armed with an ar-15. The caller threatened "if any police approach me, I will open fire on them immediately and any other student I see." michael greco after 18 years as a brown police officer, he was
▶ 1:42:13Sen. Britt: One of the ones that responded to this incident. He testified under oath that during the 2021 ar-15 and bomb threat, leadership explicitly ordered responders off recorded radio channels, deliberately concealing an active shooter threat from the providence police and the federal query oversight act.
▶ 1:42:43Sen. Britt: In the summer of 2023, a brown police sergeant was made aware of another potential mass shooting threat made against brown. When the sergeant urged university leadership to cancel the children's reading event scheduled for later that day, he was brushed off.
▶ 1:43:04Sen. Britt: His leadership later described his actions as "bordering insubordination." in 2024, campus activists claimed the university's existing security apparatus, a few security cameras and a debilitated police force, that it constituted "instrument of impression." that furthered the university's
▶ 1:43:36Sen. Britt: Goal to "criminalize protest." faced with this backlash president christina paxton issued a university white female formally apologizing for the perception that the university was "engaging in surveillance." this response reveals the administration's attitude.
▶ 1:44:04Sen. Britt: That it's on physical security infrastructure they view as a political liability rather than a lifesaving necessity. In april 2024, in unsecured door allowed two criminals the opportunity to rob students at the everett poland dorm on campus. Brown did nothing.
▶ 1:44:31Sen. Britt: On august 27, 2025, the brown university police sergeant union issued a unanimous vote of no confidence for brown university police chief and his deputy. Brown did nothing.
▶ 1:44:48Sen. Britt: In october 2025, the patrolman's association issued an additional unanimous no-confidence vote explicitly warning of exhausted officers forced overtime and "ongoing technology failures." brown did nothing. In november 2025, custodian bill kane email the executive vice president directly concerned about the unauthorized access and lack of patrols.
▶ 1:45:19Sen. Britt: Brown did nothing. So by the time we get to december 13, the day that ella cook lost her life, there were 15 vacant officer positions resulting in only five officers protecting campus that day.
▶ 1:45:43Sen. Britt: A 15 year veteran custodian saw the assailant casing the place for weeks, madam secretary. Pacing hallways, ducking into bathrooms, and staring into room 166. The custodian reported this to the security contractors on campus not once but twice.
▶ 1:46:12Sen. Britt: The security staff responded with "I'm not here for that." the murderer himself later admitted he planned to attack for six semesters and had "plenty of opportunities" but he kept chickening out. Opportunities that grounds gross negligence allowed.
▶ 1:46:42Sen. Britt: At 4:05 p.m. Providence fire department was alerted that shots were fired at the engineering building. Instead of activating campus emergency alarm system, brown waited 17 minutes knowing that there was an active shooter on campus to alert students of that threat.
▶ 1:47:05Sen. Britt: During the 17 minute void of official communication, the assailant was able to fire at least 44 rounds from a nine millimeters handgun completely unchallenged and escaped. Responding law enforcement that quickly realized the security cameras were nonexistent, turned off and unstaffd off and unstaffed.
▶ 1:47:34Sen. Britt: Throughout the day, the university sent out and subsequently attract multiple falsehoods regarding the suspect and another active shooter your campus. Brown university's leadership did not just fail to protect its students, they actively dismantled every layer of protection that could have stopped this massacre and prevented the murder of an ami professor two days later.
▶ 1:48:01Sen. Britt: Adam sec., it is clear to be round in my opinion has violated the cleary act. Madam secretary, will you please confirm that your department is investigating this matter in a timely and thorough fashion?
▶ 1:48:14Sec. Mcmahon: --
▶ 1:48:18Chair Capito: If you could quickly answer that and then if you have questions for the record?
▶ 1:48:24Sen. Britt: I have no more questions but I would like all of this a for the record.
▶ 1:48:28Chair Capito: Without objection.
▶ 1:48:31Sec. Mcmahon: That is a chilling account. We are aware of a lot of these allegations with brown and we are actively conducting a cleary act investigation.
▶ 1:48:43Chair Capito: Senator durbin.
▶ 1:48:46Sen. Durbin: Thank you. Secretary mcmahon, welcome. Last year when you appeared before the subcommittee, I gave you a pop quiz. I'm going to give it to you again. What kind of school in america and roles 8% of american college students that accounts for 30% of all student owned --
▶ 1:49:07Sec. Mcmahon: For-profit colleges.
▶ 1:49:11Sen. Durbin: You aced the exam. These numbers tell quite a story. For-profit colleges mislead students into believe they can get certain jobs and salaries if they stick with them graduate. In reality, they charge high tuition rates, provide little if any support to students while in school, and leaves students with worthless degrees. 8% of the students in college, 30% of the student loans for profit colleges.
▶ 1:49:37Sen. Durbin: I send a letter every year every high school principal, teacher, counselor warning them that mailings do students receive about these for-profit schools don't tell the whole story. Let's talk about one of my constituents she wanted to be in law enforcement, thank goodness. She went to westwood college, one of the worst actors in america.
▶ 1:50:03Sen. Durbin: After three years of juggling full-time jobs and going to school full-time, she learned her degree from westwood was virtually worthless. By then, she had $50,000 in debt to this for-profit school. She dropped out because she could not afford another penny of debt. Under the biden administration, there was good news.
▶ 1:50:25Sen. Durbin: In august 2022, 79,000 students who attended westwood learned they would receive financial relief they were in total through -- they were entitled to that allow students to seek charges if the school led to them for participated in misconduct. That was nearly four years ago. In 2026, 12,000 of those borrowers have not received the discharge as they were promised. Instead of throwing these borrowers a lifeline, you have chosen to close the door.
▶ 1:50:57Sen. Durbin: Can you tell me, do you believe the for-profit colleges that misled students about job placement and salaries should be held accountable?
▶ 1:51:04Sec. Mcmahon: I think all colleges and universities should be held accountable for their programs, absolutely.
▶ 1:51:10Sen. Durbin: Should the department promised to discharge the student loans?
▶ 1:51:12Sec. Mcmahon: Yes, sir, I would like for you to please understand that it is not my goal in dismantling anything to walk away from any of the responsibilities that are there. That is a wrong mischaracterization.
▶ 1:51:28Sen. Durbin: Why wait? It has been a year and a half for this president.
▶ 1:51:30Sec. Mcmahon: I think it is in the process of all these -- I'm not sure where they all are. But we will not walk away from these responsibilities.
▶ 1:51:39Sen. Durbin: If you would please get me a report on that I would appreciate it. Six takes ago, congress created the trio program. Up and no income first-generation college students succeed in college. Illinois is a leader in this program. Eleanor received more than $49 million in trio grants to help 37,000 students freed up money well spent as far as I'm concerned.
▶ 1:52:04Sen. Durbin: When we talked on the phone about this program, you said you needed to know if it was successful. Let me tell you the story about how trio changed the life of one of my constituents. Cornelius griggs grew up in foster care. He had a rough childhood. Found the trio program in high school that helped him study for the act and develop productive habits and apply and enroll in college. He would to chicago state university, committed to studying hard and it paid off.
▶ 1:52:36Sen. Durbin: In his freshman year, he made the dean's list. Chicago state, he participated in another trio program which helps undergrad students pursue a secondary degree. After graduating with a bachelor's degree, cornelius earned his master's degree from the illinois institute of technology. One of the best. Industrial technology and operations with a concentration in construction management.
▶ 1:52:59Sen. Durbin: He used his education to found gma construction group, a $400 million company, 67th largest general contractor in the midwest. Madam secretary, that is what america is all about. That is what trio is all about. How do you explain your department's request to eliminate the trio program?
▶ 1:53:19Sec. Mcmahon: Senator, she's become allergy season is playing havoc with me this morning. We have discussed trio quite a bit this morning. You are not in the room. Let me repeat some of the things I've said. There are many instances where the trio program has been beneficial and there are a lot of stories just like the one you count.
▶ 1:53:49Sec. Mcmahon: As we look across the country, how to spend these dollars and how to have similar results but not necessarily focusing children, students, toward college degrees. Maybe there's another way for them to have that path to success. Currently, two of the trio tranches are being rebid to take a look at what might happen if the students might be focused toward apprenticeships or other programs.
▶ 1:54:16Sec. Mcmahon: I'm not trying to take away anything from our colleges and universities. I do believe there are many aspects of student lives that they want to go to college and have the full college experience. But I do think we have perhaps need to think in our country about the full educational process that we have here and that college is not the only solution for everyone.
▶ 1:54:40Sec. Mcmahon: That there should be other opportunities through our apprenticeship programs that are balanced by both the private and public sector. I think there are a lot of trio programs that are being beneficial. We are in the process of spinning about $2.1 million of investigating research in the trio programs to find out how they can be more beneficial and productive should congress decide to continue to appropriate the funds toward trio. We would like them to be the most effective possible.
▶ 1:55:11Sen. Durbin: I could not agree more. American kids deserve both. Please, keep trio alive. We need it.
▶ 1:55:18Chair Capito: Senator rounds.
▶ 1:55:22Sen. Rounds: Thank you. Madam secretary, welcome. Let me begin by saying thank you very much for taking the time to visit south dakota and to talk about the goals moving forward with regard to the planning that you have got to deliver education he said making back to the states. Before I really get into that portion of it, I would like to share some concerns as well with regard to the trio program. I think this is one that a lot of folks have concerns.
▶ 1:55:53Sen. Rounds: I would just ask with the amount of attention you see here in this community, if you would commit to as you would do the follow-ups with some of the concerns that have been expressed about the loss or the changes to the trio program. It is a sensitive area.
▶ 1:56:05Sec. Mcmahon: Certainly.
▶ 1:56:08Sen. Rounds: Thank you. I've have appreciated your willingness to visit the issue of bringing the decisions for education back to the states. Your returning education to the states tour I thought was a good idea. I like the idea of those decisions should be made at the local level.
▶ 1:56:30Sen. Rounds: I think there are number of areas within the department of education that we have been working through legislation trying to divvy back out again to the departments they were in before the department was ever created. I liked the fact you have been working very hard at doing agreements with other agencies in which you would take something which is currently what the department of education and moving it over toward where it was before 1980. I like those ideas.
▶ 1:56:57Sen. Rounds: We have introduced legislation that would do something similar and work our way back through, providing more block grant opportunities to the states with money. But then looking at specific areas such as impact aid and idea and so forth, not block renting those things by keeping those areas together in an office and demanding with it. -- and the money with it. I appreciate what you have focused on this.
▶ 1:57:27Sen. Rounds: I am concerned, as most of the people in this committee are, regards to the direction that education has been going, actually since the creation of the education department. The latest scores from the national assessment of educational progress, really a national embarrassment. Two thirds of the fourth-graders cannot read proficiently. One third of eighth-graders score below basic. At the highest percentage ever recorded. That means these kids cannot identify basic literary elements in text.
▶ 1:57:55Sen. Rounds: In math, between high and low performing students from the gap is the widest it is ever been. The department of education was created to collect education data and provide state and local organizations on best practices. It has become a place until you came into the picture where it was a top-down direction giving program. I liked the approach you are taking in returning it back to the states.
▶ 1:58:21Sen. Rounds: Just in a broad sense, would you like to share a little bit about what your vision is in terms of what the department of education should be like as opposed to what it was when you found it in terms of listening to the states and empowering the states but not necessarily telling the states what they're supposed to do in a one-size-fits-all model?
▶ 1:58:41Sec. Mcmahon: To your point, in this proposed budget is $2 billion that would go as a block grant to states through formula that will be worked on. But this will allow states to do that. Don't always participate in grantmaking because maybe they don't have enough money to hire grant writers, etc., now all states will participate in many coming from the $2 billion.
▶ 1:59:13Sec. Mcmahon: Then governors, state superintendents, state school boards will decide how this money should be spent in their state, where the greatest needs are. Whether that is in rural communities, whatever those programs are pretty they will be deciding how to spend that money . It is a reduction in the total amount of dollars. There are some programs we have eliminated and also condensed about 17 programs into this thought process.
▶ 1:59:42Sec. Mcmahon: I think there is opportunity for states to take on this responsibility. As a reminder, as you are aware, states provide about 93% of their own education budget. Some of the amount that comes from the federal government is small by total comparison of the money that is spent in each state towards education process.
▶ 2:00:08Sec. Mcmahon: So I think the government wants to continue through title ia funding. Idea, we have to our budget, proposed the greatest increase in a long time, $500 million for that funding. And that includes $50 million for infants and children in their programs so they are ready to accept these children who might have disabilities at birth, very early on.
▶ 2:00:38Sec. Mcmahon: I think the administration is showing we are very concerned about our children and about education across the board.
▶ 2:00:45Sen. Rounds: I appreciate your comments. I'm going to run out of time but I want to identify one more item and that is impact aid. It is really important because that is the money that comes back to the states to replace what otherwise would have been property tax dollars and so forth that were found for an area like where on a native american reservation or in an air force base where it is the assistance to an area that may have federal lands that otherwise are not taxed.
▶ 2:01:13Sen. Rounds: Impact aid is important as some of our more rural states like south dakota. I think one of the questions had been if it was to be delivered back out, would you keep it with a other department in terms of the agreement or an operational plan? Do you know her impact aid might end up where would you keep it within the department of education?
▶ 2:01:36Sec. Mcmahon: I would be happy to get back to you on that. However, I want you to know the dollars are going out on time where they're supposed to go.
▶ 2:01:46Sen. Rounds: Excellent. That takes a load off a lot of the small school districts that rely on the aide.
▶ 2:01:54Chair Capito: Senator reed.
▶ 2:01:57Sen. Reed: Thank you. We spoke last week and thank you for the call. You indicated that literacy and numeracy were some of your top objectives.
▶ 2:02:13Sen. Reed: But as we look at the budget, we have seen you taking $6.5 billion in literacy programs and numeracy programs and then cramming them into 2.5 -- $2 billion block grant. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me because these programs are very effective.
▶ 2:02:37Sen. Reed: They also have been sort of benefit from the experience and deployment throughout the country. So it seems to me that literacy is not a priority with this administration.
▶ 2:02:53Sec. Mcmahon: I have to disagree. The one great program that we are proposing will require states to reserve 25% for literacy, education and 25% for numeracy education. There is clearly the emphasis on continuing to adopt those programs.
▶ 2:03:18Sen. Reed: I'm doing some quick math. 25% for literacy?
▶ 2:03:21Sec. Mcmahon: And 25% --.
▶ 2:03:26Sen. Reed: That is a small fraction of what we currently spend for literacy right now.
▶ 2:03:30Sec. Mcmahon: We're not spending $6.5 billion on literacy. If that were the case, our children could read read they're going through a lot of other programs in this country that are not related to reading and doing math.
▶ 2:03:42Sen. Reed: I think that, if you look at places like mississippi, tennessee, louisiana, they benefit from these programs. All the programs that I mentioned. And they all are involved with literacy and numeracy. In fact, last year, many states -- cancellation by you because of this dei factor.
▶ 2:04:17Sen. Reed: Again, that counters the idea we have to -- c which I believe we do. It is almost like the defense department saying we have to build warships by cutting our shipbuilding.
▶ 2:04:31Sec. Mcmahon: You and I just have to disagree on the program and what is put forward in the states innovation. Mississippi, louisiana, florida, texas, tennessee, idaho, iowa that are adopting programs --.
▶ 2:04:50Sen. Reed: They use the grants.
▶ 2:04:51Sec. Mcmahon: And there will still get this money. The grants that come into their state, there governors will then decide how to spend that money.
▶ 2:05:01Sen. Reed: It will be less money, just to the mat.
▶ 2:05:03Sec. Mcmahon: It will be less money but the governors will determine how to spin the preponderance of that money that comes into their state. They are still going to have their own budgets of 90%-90 3% of funding.
▶ 2:05:16Sen. Reed: And that budget will be effective -- affected dramatically by the big beautiful bill brit in my own state we are scheduled to lose 200 million dollars of medicaid funding over the year 2027. But we do a budget that goes from july 1 to june 30. Last year I believe about $30 million was given to the school systems to take her medicaid -- to take care of medicaid. That is one of the areas.
▶ 2:05:49Sen. Reed: We are facing with this budget really difficult challenges. When you cut this much money from literacy, you undermine the efforts and achievements that are accomplished so far. I don't think it is a matter of disagreeing. I think it is a matter of very poor policy. Also, as I mentioned or alluded to, you went through the process of either holding grants or canceling grants based on dei.
▶ 2:06:20Sen. Reed: Also I think in hispanic serving institutions. None of that has been clarified by a court as to what is an appropriate rationale to stop funding. Since we authorized the funding and appropriated the funding. I used to think that meant you had to spend the funding.
▶ 2:06:39Sec. Mcmahon: Which one are you referring to specifically? Sen.
▶ 2:06:44Reed: I'm referring to a host of different grants that you stopped, that you took months to decide to put into the field to release the states. There was a conscious effort. Dei and some of the recipients finally sort of rearranged the wording in their applications so that you gave it. But that was an arbitrary decision.
▶ 2:07:10Sec. Mcmahon: That was at a time last year when we were reviewing -- this was very early on in the administration. We reviewed all of the outstanding grants to make sure they weren't just being rubberstamped as they had been before. There was dei language and that -- this administration, that is against the statutes we put in place.
▶ 2:07:35Sen. Reed: It is not a statute.
▶ 2:07:36Sec. Mcmahon: It -- those programs have been ruled unconstitutional by the department of justice. We won't be funding those pretty
▶ 2:07:47Sen. Reed: Can you give us, send us the statutory language that requires these grants to satisfy dei test?
▶ 2:07:55Sec. Mcmahon: Be happy to work with you --.
▶ 2:07:59Sen. Reed: Can you give us the language? Thank you.
▶ 2:08:03Chair Capito: Senator baldwin for a final question and then I will have a final question.
▶ 2:08:08Sen. Baldwin: I have been listening with interest about exchange on literacy and others. The really round questions were really about the role of the department of education and my strong concerns about an effort to eliminate the department of education. I think there is common is conceptions about why we have the department of education.
▶ 2:08:37Sen. Baldwin: In k-12 education it provides a relatively small but very important part of funding for our local schools. Because it enforces rights for students, including students with disabilities. But it doesn't and cannot tell schools what to teach or what curriculum to use. The department of education is not responsible for every problem in our education system or every drop in test scores. It similarly cannot fix every problem but it can help.
▶ 2:09:11Sen. Baldwin: I understand when I was taking my vote on the floor that you are asked a question about the science of reading. You're familiar with science and reading.
▶ 2:09:18Sec. Mcmahon: Yes.
▶ 2:09:20Sen. Baldwin: I assume you're familiar with how that body of research was developed. In the late 1990's, congress asked the director of the national institute of child health and human development in consultation with the secretary of education to convene a national panel to assess the research on how children learn to read.
▶ 2:09:46Sen. Baldwin: The resulting report was based on a review of 100,000 studies on k-3 grade literacy and released in the year 2000. And that was the basis for what became known as the science of reading. And the research has continued to develop. These are not things that can be done by local school districts. These are things that require national leadership.
▶ 2:10:11Sen. Baldwin: And so, how has the department of education supported the implementation of approaches like the science of reading?
▶ 2:10:20Sec. Mcmahon: What we are trying to do is make sure those states that have introduced the science of reading in their programs, that that information can be delivered to other states. I think that is really important to see the successes that have been -- that have happened.
▶ 2:10:40Sen. Baldwin: I could not agree more and that is why we need a department of education. Look, the point is the department of education has supported this work. That is not me saying it. I think about mississippi, one of those states that has managed to implement changes to improve student outcomes. It was described by some as a miracle.
▶ 2:11:04Sen. Baldwin: But the department -- the state superintendent in mississippi credited the department of education in helping them implement the reforms to improve student outcomes. She said, "they helped us develop resources that are teachers could use, our leaders could use. If there was something we wanted to have been evaluated programmatically, they will come in and evaluate that for us to inform our decision-making.
▶ 2:11:34Sen. Baldwin: I mean, I can't say enough about how important they -- meaning the department of education -- were. It is this amazing group of researchers and specialists." that is just one example of what would be at risk as this administration tries to eliminate the department of education. You know, I believe the ultimate goal is to significantly cut and eliminate federal funding for schools.
▶ 2:12:03Sen. Baldwin: In the meantime, it means needlessly taking away important student support like this one from states and school districts. One last comment, madam chair. I heard the exchange between you and senator murphy about the office of civil rights funding. I just want to state for the record these are the facts, the fiscal year 2026 budget for the department of education office of civil rights is $140 million.
▶ 2:12:35Sen. Baldwin: The fiscal year 2027 request is $91 million. That would be a $49 million or 35% cut as senator murphy said.
▶ 2:12:48Chair Capito: Thank you for being here. I will say in comments and office of civil rights, I think as senator britt passionately explained the lack of protection for students on the brown campus , I will be interested to read what your department comes up with.
▶ 2:13:14Chair Capito: It was shocking when she went to it step-by-step all the missteps in the philosophy that came with not protecting those students. Your assumption always -- when I went to school, when you went to school, the school where your parents. That was the feeling. That obviously was not the case. I hope that is not the norm for our college campuses as we send our sons and daughters.
▶ 2:13:44Sec. Mcmahon: That is why we have the cleary act and we are actively investigating. Matt just take one minute to respond just to senator baldwin? Senator baldwin, I wanted to be reflective on the civil rights in our budget and that is the floor of what we are recommending for the hiring of new attorneys from that as a floor number. Hopefully we will have the ability to increase it.
▶ 2:14:11Chair Capito: Thank you. Quickly, I want to put on your radar screen because I think this falls in the bucket of the $2 billion make education grade again. You know this is a program that is important to me. Living in a rural state, we are trying to get our parents to work and we are trying to have a full workforce. One of the challenges for every parent with school-age children is what you do once they leave the classroom?
▶ 2:14:40Chair Capito: When they are so young and they can't obsolete take care of themselves at home and shouldn't be? That is that 21st century community learning centers. In our state, they play a great role and fill the gaps because there's not enough childcare everywhere, we know that, but certainly after school care is really hard to get. We have heard a lot from parents and teachers and school leaders that this is a critical need for us.
▶ 2:15:05Chair Capito: I see it includes putting it into the grant is a proposition that the states will make the determination as to how important this program is for them? Because how would this change in funding mechanisms really impact our local afterschool programs?
▶ 2:15:23Sec. Mcmahon: It would be up to the states to see if this is where they have their need and spend their money on those programs.
▶ 2:15:29Chair Capito: Ok. With that, let me get my little closing script out here. That's not it. What we do with the people who passed us papers? This ends our hearing today. I would like to think my fellow committee members radar that we had a good turnout, thoughtful conversation.
▶ 2:15:59Chair Capito: Think you can do secretary my man. For any who wish ask additional questions, the hearing record which will remain open until the fifth for members who wish to submit additional records -- additional materials for the record. The subcommittee will stand in recess. Thank you. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]