▶ 0:18:31Chair Lee: Good morning. The committee will come to order. We are going to hear from tom scholz, chief of the united states forest service. We will discuss the fiscal year 2027 budget. Welcome, chief schutlz. I will begin with my opening statement, followed by an opening statement from ranking member senator heinrich. We will then turn to chief schultz for his remarks followed by questions from senators.
▶ 0:19:03Chair Lee: It looks like we have members from the intel committee with us . Very important stuff. We will then turn to chief schultz for his prepared remarks and that will be followed by questions from senators who will be recognized in order of seniority.
▶ 0:19:29Chair Lee: And then in order seniority -- in order of arrival followed -- following the gavel. Chief schultz, welcome back to the committee and welcome to utah as far as the forest service goes. You cannot have chosen a better place for the U.S.
▶ 0:19:49Chair Lee: Forest service headquarters in salt lake city and I suspect you will come to appreciate why utah settlers looked across the valley when they entered in 1847 and said this is the place. Utah is home to a vast amount of forest service land. Nearly a quarter of the 35 million acres of federally owned land in our state is lands of the for service.
▶ 0:20:17Chair Lee: Generations of your towns -- utahns have cared for those landscapes and help preserve the beauty and character that make them so remarkable today. Western states understand the challenges facing these lands and are aware of the stewardship our forests require.
▶ 0:20:41Chair Lee: For decades, the agency authority became concentrated, far from the actual forests themselves and further from the communities that tend to be most affected by forest service decisions. As bureaucracy expanded, decisions took longer to reach an active management became more difficult and local expertise was often treated as secondary to directives coming from washington, D.C..
▶ 0:21:11Chair Lee: The consequences of that concentration have taken a heavy toll. Overgrown forests, crumley infrastructure, growing fuel loads, mounting maintenance backlog's, and increased wildfire risk. These challenges are the predictable consequences of a philosophy that prioritizes preservation for its own sake while neglecting the active management that healthy forests require.
▶ 0:21:40Chair Lee: Relocating the headquarters to utah acknowledges that these lands are best managed closest to the people who live, work, and depend on them every day. Despite these challenges, you have made significant progress, resending the role which is a perfect example for more than two decades the rule this rule -- roadless rule imposed a rigid, nationwide framework across millions of acres of forest service land and fails to account for local conditions,
▶ 0:22:15Chair Lee: Wildfire threats, watershed needs, and realities facing so many of our western communities. The inability to build or maintain roads has made restoration projects more difficult, delayed fuel reduction work, limited temper access, and complicated wildfire response efforts. All the while, our forest grew denser. Fuel loads accumulated.
▶ 0:22:42Chair Lee: Insect infestations spread and fires became more severe. Healthy forests require active management. They require timber harvest, fuel reduction, watershed restoration, and strategies tailored to on the ground conditions. The idea that forests can be left untouched has proven unsustainable and for many dangerous.
▶ 0:23:10Chair Lee: Under your tenure it has been refreshing to see the forest service show greater willingness to work alongside states and localities rather than treating them as obstacles to being -- to be dealt with or managed around. The cooperative agreement signed with utah is an excellent example of what is possible when local expertise and federal resources are aligned. It is my hope this approach will continue to guide the agency moving forward.
▶ 0:23:42Chair Lee: Those partnerships matter because the scale of the challenge facing the agency cannot be overstated. The forest service deferred maintenance backlog has increased by more than 80% over the last five years.
▶ 0:23:59Chair Lee: Roads, bridges, campgrounds, water systems, and other infrastructure continue to age while repair costs rise faster than projects can be completed and the federal estate continues to grow. Congress established the legacy restoration fund to help address that problem and this budget proposes reauthorizing.
▶ 0:24:21Chair Lee: I support efforts to reduce the backlog but we also need reforms that prevent the problem from continually compounding year after year. No amount of spending will solve the problem if the underlying management never changes. We cannot continue expanding. Federal liabilities -- roads, trails, campgrounds, and critical infrastructure continue to fall deeper into disrepair.
▶ 0:24:52Chair Lee: There are encouraging signs that the agency is moving in a better direction. Timber targets are increasing. Partnerships with western states are expanding. The forest service is taking a more practical approach toward fuel reduction but substantial challenges remain and this budget hearing is an opportunity to examine whether the agency is aligning priorities and resources with realities as they exist on the ground.
▶ 0:25:19Chair Lee: Our national forests are national assets, woven into the story of the country itself. Keeping them strong for future generations requires care, vigilance, and recognition these lands will not remain healthy if they are simply left unattended. The american people expect these forests to be protected before disaster strikes and not after.
▶ 0:25:47Chair Lee: I have the utmost confidence in your ability to navigate these unique challenges and I look forward to today's discussion. Welcome, chief. I now recognize the ranking member, senator heinrich, for his opening statement.
▶ 0:26:02Sen. Heinrich: Good morning, chief schultz. Thank you for being here today to discuss the forest service fiscal year 2027 budget request. Last year I found the proposed budget troubling end of this year when taken in the context of what had been a rootless series of attacks on public lands the public -- the budget seems disappointing and irresponsible.
▶ 0:26:32Sen. Heinrich: Over the last year, we saw a chaotic halloween of the forest service -- hollowing out of the forest service staff. In addition to deferred resignations and early retirements, we saw a loss of over 5000 -- roughly 5008 hundred forest service employees.
▶ 0:26:57Sen. Heinrich: Now, I have heard from constituents who are worried about the forest service ability to carry out basic responsibilities, everything from trail maintenance to projects to protect infrastructure investments. We saw the forest service pullback watershed protections in areas where local communities are pleading for politicians in tc to safeguard water. In my state and around the country.
▶ 0:27:24Sen. Heinrich: We saw the forest service begin to strip away decades long habitat protections in backcountry areas, the places that I and my constituents go to hunt elk. The forest service continues to push forward with reorganization without a public facing plan or assurances on specifically how this will actually help the forest service that are managed forests.
▶ 0:27:50Sen. Heinrich: Many of the claims we will likely hear today about how the forest service supports healthy forests and partnerships with sportsmen and local communities and states do not match up to what is actually in the proposed budget. When talking about the reorganization we will hear about a desire to bring forest service managers closer to the forests they manage, something I support. However, workforce reductions in the budget mostly affect on the ground staff.
▶ 0:28:19Sen. Heinrich: These are the people who actually carry out forest restoration and hazardous fuel work. We will hear claims that the reorganization will not impact the forest service ability to continue to conduct top-notch research. Despite this budget actually proposing to eliminate most research centers, something I hope the senate and congress will revisit. Let's look at the budget. The budget request eliminates the forest research program.
▶ 0:28:50Sen. Heinrich: 20 this program at a time when our forest face -- forests face increasing threats from wildfire, insects, disease is shortsighted and reckless. We will hear claims about how eliminating regional offices will make the forest service more responsive to state and local governments. I want to the forest service to be more responsive, but in the budget we see in elimination of the state private and tribal forestry programs.
▶ 0:29:21Sen. Heinrich: These programs are important. They are vital to support landscapes in the west where land ownership is split among federal, state, private, and tribal stewards. Eliminating these would undermine nonfederal force management and claiming that states will somehow pick up the bill is unrealistic. It is an abdication of our responsibility to manage these lands today and for future generations. Then there is the wildland fire program.
▶ 0:29:51Sen. Heinrich: We are hearing the reorganization will not move the wildfire program out of the for service, so let's look at the budget. Again, with few details at a passing recognition of the need for future legislation, the budget proposes to move the wildland fire program to the department of the interior. Let me be clear.
▶ 0:30:11Sen. Heinrich: When we are spending our time on make-believe budgets and reorganizations and moving deck chairs around, it means we are not preparing to fight fires, which is my primary concern in this coming season.
▶ 0:30:29Sen. Heinrich: When we are willing to lose people who support the agency ability to conduct research or interact with state and local partners, we are losing the red cardholders who make up command teams. I said this last year and I will say it again. I'm open to new ideas in wildfire policy or better, more efficient organization. What we have been offered so far is not thoughtful reform.
▶ 0:30:58Sen. Heinrich: It is a decoupling of fire management and land management missions. Those things should be done together. They should be one and the same. That is how we have holistic management of forests.
▶ 0:31:13Sen. Heinrich: I am concerned that the forest service is claiming to have achieved 90% of the hazardous fuel treatment goals but by their own account the acres treated were down nearly 30% in 2025 compared with 2024.
▶ 0:31:32Sen. Heinrich: Given a budget proposal that does not adequately support our communities, does not effectively protect watersheds and wildlife habitat, and does not seem to value the people that carry out that work, I have serious concerns about this administration's ability to meet even the baseline land management responsibilities. What this budget shows me is a roadmap on how to dismantle the forest service.
▶ 0:32:02Sen. Heinrich: I want to empower the forest service. I want them to be able to manage our forests. I look forward to our discussion today.
▶ 0:32:12Chair Lee: I now recognize chief schultz for his opening statement and your written statement will also be admitted into the record.
▶ 0:32:22Chief Schultz: Members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me here to testify today. Established in 1905, the forest service is the foremost federal forest reorganization. We have the privilege of managing 154 national forests, 20 national grasslands, and -- covering 43 states and puerto rico.
▶ 0:32:48Chief Schultz: The forest service works with tribes, forced industry, private forest owners, and others to manage for multiple uses and collectively we have shared challenges. Addressing wildfire risk, threats to watersheds, and the need to support rural economies that depend on healthy forests and grasslands are top priorities for the secretary and me. None of these challenges stop at jurisdictional boundaries. None can be solved by the federal government alone.
▶ 0:33:15Chief Schultz: They require partnerships and community -- the best partnerships happen when we act collectively and my focus over the past year as chief has been a return to fundamentals, keeping people and community safe, reducing risk to communities, and actively managing forests and grasslands so they remain productive. We want to increase and improve public access for recreation and other uses.
▶ 0:33:46Chief Schultz: Wildfire readiness remains central to our mission and we are seeing more fires. As of early may, we have hired about 10,005 hundred firefighters, 11% more than last year at this time and eight percent more than in 2024. This is about 1000 more firefighters this year compared to the same time last year. Our target is 11,300 firefighters, the same number as the last several years. From 2024 to 2025, employees have increased to over 10,300 employees.
▶ 0:34:16Chief Schultz: We will have more than 450 additional responders available this year. Our firefighters are renowned for their rapid response. We will continue to demonstrate the strength and keep fires small and use risk reduction tools. We have used prescribed fire in more than 2 million acres this year. Last year was also protected to be a bad fire season.
▶ 0:34:44Chief Schultz: We had 12% more starts during the season but burn half as many acres. Last year we were also very safe. We reduced our quotable incidents by 15% from 2024 to 2020 five. Much of the western united states -- now exceeds our growth rates, particularly in the national four system, driven by fires, insects, and disease. Our forests are dying faster than they are growing.
▶ 0:35:12Chief Schultz: The forest service harvest timber on less than point 5% of total forests and acres every year. Despite our reserves, we rely heavily on canada to meet domestic timber supply I'm about 25% of the lumber currently comes from canada. Active force management is not optional. It is how we restore health to our forests, reduce fire risk, and keep them open for public access.
▶ 0:35:38Chief Schultz: Expanding timber production is part of restoring productivity. Last year, we planted 285,000 acres of forests, more than in the last 25 years. In our front line workforce is critical to expanding management of national forests. I committed to hiring 2000 seasonal ploy ease to ensure we are able to do that. We have made progress.
▶ 0:36:03Chief Schultz: We have hired more than 880 seasonal employees so far this year to date and another will start in the next four to eight weeks, critical to mission support. Our forests provide more than clean water. They are working lands that support american energy security and innovation. Energy security is national security. Responsible resource use and resilience while upholding our multiple use mission.
▶ 0:36:29Chief Schultz: The fiscal year 2027 budget the president proposes focuses on efforts to manage national forests for timber production cut recreation, and permitting for energy development. The budget emphasizes efficient and effective fire management to unify the federal suppression response apparatus under the department of interior.
▶ 0:36:53Chief Schultz: The unification under doi will allow the forest service to focus on its remaining core mission of delivering critical outputs. The budget supports the president's timber production goals by increasing funding for active management and proposed that proposes to increase the amount retained by the agency for reinvestment in the national for system lands. Our public lands offer some of the best recreational opportunities in the world.
▶ 0:37:21Chief Schultz: National forests receive visitors annually and we maintain safe infrastructure for these visits. That is why the budget requests reauthorization. The budget reduces or eliminates some aspects of federal funding in the forest service budget to better balance federal and state government. The budget request underscores our commitment to focus on investments and products for the national forests that are critical to support rural communities.
▶ 0:37:51Chief Schultz: We are prioritizing fundamentals and ensuring maximum value for the taxpayer. Thank you for inviting me here today.
▶ 0:37:59Chair Lee: Thank you. Your written statement will be admitted to the record. We will start our five-minute rounds of questions and I will begin with that. We are thrilled that you are willing to -- the service to salt lake city. And the building in downtown salt lake city. I'm sure you will agree.
▶ 0:38:28Chair Lee: Can you explain to us briefly how this reorganization is going to help reduce bureaucratic red tape, improve on the ground force management, and strengthen collaboration?
▶ 0:38:40Chief Schultz: Yes. We have statutes, regulations, and directives. We have over 3600 directives at the forest service. More than 2200 have come from regional offices so regional offices have had a function of not just administering programs and delivering service to the public but also delivering policy and that policy has created in many cases roadblocks to get work done so in part of
▶ 0:39:10Chief Schultz: This reorganization is to move decision-making closer to the ground and removing policymaking capacity of regional office structure that currently exists. So policy will only be developed in the washington office, not across the country. We are moving to a state-based model where we will have state directors commit many co-located in the capital cities and many of the states. We are trying to take a step back and look at how we empower folks on the ground to make decisions.
▶ 0:39:40Chief Schultz: The other piece we are looking at is reducing levels of management. We will push resources closer to the ground so we would expect to see more employees on districts and forests where much of the work gets done and we serve the public.
▶ 0:39:52Chair Lee: Can you confirm the reorganization will not adversely impact wildfire operations the season?
▶ 0:40:02Chief Schultz: We have made an effort that any changes being proposed for regional offices will not -- will occur after the wildfire season in the west so we are looking to delay that until such time as we do mitigate any potential impacts to firefighting capacity.
▶ 0:40:18Chair Lee: The federal government owns 67% of the land in utah and the forest service is responsible for about a quarter of that land. Past administrations have been unwilling to work with the state, imposing their agenda over common sense, active management strategies. You are changing course and choosing to work with states instead of against them.
▶ 0:40:47Chair Lee: The cooperative agreement you signed with utah prioritizes expanding timber production, accelerating forest restoration, and increasing fuel reduction treatments. How does this model of expanding the state partnerships improve the forest service ability to manage these lands and to do so responsibly?
▶ 0:41:09Chief Schultz: We have 193 million acres we manage, beyond the capacity of anyone agency to do effectively so we need partnerships. What we realize is that states, tribes, counties bring expertise and manpower to the table we would not otherwise have so in these new agreements we are looking at we are looking for states to take more active roles in helping us administer management of the national forest service lands.
▶ 0:41:40Chief Schultz: We have an act that allows recreation to be co-managed with the states as well as tribes and counties so we are looking to expand our ability to partner with states and others to get more work done. We think these agreements will be a tremendous tool to do that.
▶ 0:41:56Chair Lee: Wonderful. We have seen the consequences when it does not happen. They are not pretty. When it does happen, things work better. There are no better stewards of the land, of any land, then those who depend on it and live closest to it. Our nation's ranchers exemplify that.
▶ 0:42:19Chair Lee: The recent memorandum of understanding between the forest service and blm underscores the positive impact grazing has on landscape health in communities through the west. We speak about the importance of targeted grazing for fuel reduction and what the forest service is doing to promote availability, especially as our ranchers face extreme drought and wildfire conditions?
▶ 0:42:45Chair Lee: That a really bad this season, as you have demonstrated by these charts?
▶ 0:42:50Chief Schultz: When we talk about active management, it includes forest management and reforestation, all those things. Grazing is the most heavily permitted use we have come about 40% of the national forests and grasslands are permitted so it is a key part of our management strategy for reducing wildfire risk. We have 20 national grasslands.
▶ 0:43:16Chief Schultz: And targeted grazing allows us to target certain seasons to move in during certain -- spring , you can go in and remove that fuel. With grazing. We see that as a tremendous opportunity. You asked about vacant allotments. We have about 10 million acres that historically would have been available for grazing and in some instances there is not fencing or water development.
▶ 0:43:45Chief Schultz: We are prioritizing to make available for grazing in the short term. The other thing we have done, particularly in utah, we had a large fire last year and grazing allotments that were vacant and we were able to move cattle over to some vacant lots so there is a rationale to afford opportunities if they are impacted by disaster to move cattle elsewhere but we are prioritizing identifying vacant allotments and making those available for leasing.
▶ 0:44:17Chair Lee: Thank you.
▶ 0:44:19Sen. Heinrich: Chairman lee said partnerships matter. You talked about the importance of partnerships the states. For this budget eliminates funding for the state private and tribal account that supports those partnerships. Talk to me about -- I don't understand how those things line up.
▶ 0:44:43Sen. Heinrich: The state and private programs were set up by the federal government to encourage the states to develop for three programs. I have experience in programs. What we have seen is that states have developed more expertise and capacity to do much of the work that state and private does. If states come to rely on that funding -- what we are proposing is to reduce that funding. It does not mean we will not cooperate.
▶ 0:45:15Sen. Heinrich: We still cooperate in wildfire management and land management. It means there would be greater reliance for funding to come from states and other partners but we will still consult and work with states and have cooperative agreements but not necessarily the same funding we have had in the past.
▶ 0:45:34Chair Lee: -- Sen. heinrich: if congress rejects the funding level suggested in the budget, will you commit to dispersing the funds as appropriated?
▶ 0:45:50Chief Schultz: Yes, we will disburse the funds as required by law.
▶ 0:45:56Sen. Heinrich: One of the things you said in her opening was national forests are more than clean water and places to recreate. Clean water and recreation are what drive my state economy and a great example of that is the watershed, which economically supports agriculture, tourism, hunting and fishing.
▶ 0:46:21Sen. Heinrich: Last month the administration canceled the withdrawal application of the watershed and did that over the objection of all of the local elected leadership as well as the agricultural community. This has been an overwhelmingly popular initiative that was driven by the local community.
▶ 0:46:43Sen. Heinrich: Why didn't the views of the local community carry more weight in the decision-making process particularly when it is my understanding there are no current plans for mining operations in this area?
▶ 0:46:56Chief Schultz: I think you are right. There are no current plans identified to us yet. We're trying to make sure lands are available and open for multiple use, whether grazing, timber, mining. The overall perspective is we want to make sure lands are available and open for those uses.
▶ 0:47:16Sen. Heinrich: The frustration of the local community as they do not feel they were adequately consulted and they lost other multiple uses as a result of mining impacts and spills on that river, or fisheries were impacted. Irrigation was not able to be conducted because the river was awash in mine tailings.
▶ 0:47:46Sen. Heinrich: We have to not do -- multiple use does not mean every use on every acre. I would just -- we have heard a lot of lip service about listening to local communities but I think we actually need to do that, especially in cases where the community is of one mind. To my knowledge, there is no support for new mining in this area.
▶ 0:48:16Sen. Heinrich: I want to go back to wildfire hazardous fuels treatments. In 2024 we treated 4.2 9 million acres. Last year, we treated 3.1. Why the drop? And why -- I want to understand why funds from the infrastructure bill were used to reduce the workforce? None of us discussed that as an authorized use when we wrote that legislation.
▶ 0:48:45Sen. Heinrich: It was a great example of a bipartisan legislation but we thought we were authorizing those infrastructure funds to get into those watersheds and reduce fuels and instead those infrastructure funds were used to fund the resignation program. How is that an authorized use?
▶ 0:49:05Chief Schultz: To clarify on the fuels numbers, in 2025 we treated 3.3 million acres collectively.
▶ 0:49:13Sen. Heinrich: 3.3, so down from 4.3?
▶ 0:49:18Chief Schultz: It was 4.2 86 and 2024. We typically look at trends with data. We do not try to pick at any one given year. So between that six-year period, we treated on average about 3.5 7 million acres per year over that period -- six-year period. This year our target is 3.6 million acres so we are in with the average of the last six years and will continue to prioritize those.
▶ 0:49:48Chief Schultz: This year we look forward -- last year this time we had treated about 1.1 million acres. This year we are at about 1.5 three so we have averaged 1.6 million acres a year with prescribed fire and this year we are just about right there this early in the season so we feel we have made progress. We are prioritizing treatments. Any year, things can be up and down. We talked about conditions.
▶ 0:50:20Chief Schultz: I'm trying to give most of you maps of your stay is to show you the conditions. We conditions -- when conditions are that difficult, we know that the snowpack data -- we are less than 20% of average so our ability to go out and conduct prescribed fire is challenged because we put fire on the landscape with conditions as difficult as they are, it will challenge us.
▶ 0:50:41Chair Lee: And using infrastructure funds?
▶ 0:50:46Chief Schultz: We and obligations to pay folks out. You mentioned the numbers of folks that took the process to leave the agency early and we had all the funds that we had to look at that we had available and those are funds we had to accommodate. We had about a 700 --
▶ 0:51:02Chair Lee: I don't think any of us voted for funding in the infrastructure bill to be used to used to reduce the workforce. That was funding that was focused on watershed treatment.
▶ 0:51:15Chief Schultz: We had a shortfall of about $750 million in our budget.
▶ 0:51:21Sen. Heinrich: You do not get to just pull money from anywhere. It has to be authorized for that use.
▶ 0:51:27Chief Schultz: We think what we did was legal.
▶ 0:51:31Sen. Heinrich: It may be legal. It was not what we had in mind for those funds.
▶ 0:51:37Sen. Barrasso: Thanks for being here. Grateful for what you have been doing in terms of the issues in wyoming. You've been to the state. You have visited with people. You have had meetings and all these things have been tremendous and I hear great feedback from the people of wyoming on the work you have been doing, so thank you for that. I wanted to talk about vacant allotments.
▶ 0:52:04Sen. Barrasso: I have a bill before the senate, resiliency for ranching and natural conservation health act. It allows temporary use of vacant grazing allotments during extreme events and disasters, especially on vacant allotments on national forest lands. This past wildfire season was one of the worst in the past decade.
▶ 0:52:25Sen. Barrasso: Thank you for coming with maps for all of us to see what is going on in our own states with the ongoing problems with moisture and the need for that and you clearly have a good assessment of the situation, which is concerning to all of us. We are anticipating this year will be a bad wildfire season. More important now than ever that we provide the agency the authority to help ranchers in emergency situations.
▶ 0:52:51Sen. Barrasso: This will help ranchers in rural communities work with washington , not against it. Last congress unanimously. How would this legislation expert at the process for ranchers in disaster situations?
▶ 0:53:08Chief Schultz: I gave an example this past year. We had the mountain fire in utah and we had multiple allotments impacted. We did have some vacant allotments. We were able to transfer cattle onto vacant allotments so it is important for ranchers across the landscape so the more intense that we have from congress on something like that, it will expedite the process in terms of getting through that to transfer those from allotments
▶ 0:53:38Chief Schultz: Impacted to those that might be.
▶ 0:53:39Sen. Barrasso: I want to talk about grasslands and grazing. Another one of the bills in front of the senate is called the grasslands grazing act. Livestock grazing on federal lands is a strong tradition in wyoming and across the west. Federal grazing is a necessary tool for wildfire prevention. Widely used by the for service and the bureau of land management, the forest service manages the national forest and national grasslands.
▶ 0:54:07Sen. Barrasso: Livestock grazing is done on both so I was pleased congress -- a congressman from wyoming was able to get the house companion to my bill included in the farm bill that passed the house last month. Does this legislation still have your agency's support?
▶ 0:54:23Chief Schultz: Yes. We would like to ensure its passage.
▶ 0:54:27Sen. Barrasso: In terms of collaborating with states, we have seen fires and they have been in wyoming as well. Last month the bighorn recreation canyon saw a large fire that took a joint federal response to control the burn. Rural communities are bracing for what will likely be another devastating wildfire season as resources are spread thin. Federal and state agencies need to work together.
▶ 0:54:56Sen. Barrasso: How is the forest service engaging state, local, and private partners to ensure we can respond to wildfires?
▶ 0:55:03Chief Schultz: First we have good relationships with the state foresters. So your state forester -- we talk with her on a regular basis so we have agreements in place with different states, typically cost share agreements. Those afford opportunities to clarify how we are going to pay for fires in response required, whether with local government or states.
▶ 0:55:29Chief Schultz: We have those agreements across the country, including in wyoming and active communication with state foresters.
▶ 0:55:37Sen. Barrasso: She is terrific. Thanks for pointing out how you're working with her. We will talk about timber production. The forest service has been following new executive orders to increase timber production. I'm supportive of the stops -- steps the trump administration has been making. Can you give us an update on how the agency has been managing the increase in timber production?
▶ 0:56:05Sen. Barrasso: Chief schultz: --
▶ 0:56:08Chief Schultz: We had a direction to increase over the next four years timber production. Congress directed us to increase what we sell by 250 million feet a year for the next 10 years so we have increased and exceeded our targets. We are on target to sell about 3.2 billion feet. My direction to our team has been to implement forest plans.
▶ 0:56:37Chief Schultz: That is about 7 billion board feet so we are moving in a direction moving toward full implementation. It is sustainable and consistent. It is the right thing to do.
▶ 0:56:47Sen. Barrasso: Thanks for your leadership on all of this.
▶ 0:56:51Chair Lee: Senator wyden.
▶ 0:56:55Sen. Wyden: Thank you, chief. As you know, I have made it clear that oregon is basing -- facing a wildfire timebomb waiting to detonate. Drought and wildfire conditions are worse than ever. The snowpack is practically nonexistent.
▶ 0:57:16Sen. Wyden: And I want to start by saying between reduced goals for hazardous fuel treatment, layoffs, and budget cuts, I believe that donald trump has set western states up to fail this season and in the years ahead. Here's the math as we see it in oregon on the west. Your agency is in charge of 193 million acres of public land.
▶ 0:57:44Sen. Wyden: The president thinks if you treat 2% of that acreage annually communities will be ok. Oregonians who are choking on smoke each summer do not have to do the math to say that is not working. These are -- you have heard me describe the situation. These are not your grandfather's fires.
▶ 0:58:08Sen. Wyden: They are more powerful and my first question is what additional tools will you use now to start ramping up more extensive fire protection efforts that we can use now and move ahead with in the years ahead? That is what we need, now and in the days ahead. We have talked about some of the ideas here and it is important to get them out today so we can get going.
▶ 0:58:37Chief Schultz: Thank you for your leadership in pushing for those tools. You have talked about some of those tools and prescribed fire or something you have been an advocate for her. It is the most effective means we can use and we have increased. I mentioned so far we've increased the number of acres we have used prescribed fire on significantly. Other tools we are looking at our firefighters.
▶ 0:59:03Chief Schultz: In addition to the work we do, it is looking at our capacity so we have hired an additional thousand firefighters compared to last year. We have read cardin -- red carded additional folks so today we are about 15 hundred personnel above where we were last year in terms of being prepared for fire season.
▶ 0:59:30Sen. Wyden: Let's stay with the prescribed fire issue because in the past I have read you say that is not the top in terms of cost-effectiveness. We need a game plan to start earlier, set targets, and make sure when the weather is right we can move all year-round. Because you said it is dry now we are not able to do as much.
▶ 0:59:55Sen. Wyden: I think we understand this is a tougher time but we missed opportunities given the overall activities in congress and we need to be ready to go when there is an opportunity and we have not done that before. Will you work with us on that? Higher targets move when there an opportunity?
▶ 1:00:15Chief Schultz: Definitely. That is something we do appear at the george washington jefferson forest, we have a two week burn window down there so we have cruise waiting on the edge when those windows open up so we can get after it. The bozeman district, same thing. A lot of times these burn windows are short and challenging.
▶ 1:00:38Sen. Wyden: You have bipartisan support around here. This is not the appropriations committee. This is the authorization committee and there are other people -- senator budd has worked closely with me on it. It is bipartisan. Let me talk to about another tool where we may have some good news. Senator crapo and I have prosecuted this case to deal with fire borrowing for years and years. We finally got it done.
▶ 1:01:04Sen. Wyden: So we do not waste opportunities to do prevention and still have resources to get big fires taken care of. We do not have to choose any longer appear in the lock expire soon. Can you give us the current update of how much money has been saved as a result of this bipartisan effort? Their senators all over this committee. How much money have we saved as a result of what we have done?
▶ 1:01:34Chief Schultz: Before we had to take money from within the agency and we could not do other work in the agency's what has been over $12 billion during this period that we have been able to save from taking that
▶ 1:01:47From Sen. Wyden: Land management.
▶ 1:01:49Sen. Wyden: Since we passed the fire borrowing law for the first time after all that debate, we saved $12 billion. Ok. Let me close by saying there are a couple areas, like prescribed fire and the issue we are talking about in terms of rewarding prevention where I think we can be bolder and we better be because citizens are counting on us taking the steps -- these steps. They want more safety during the fire season. Thank you.
▶ 1:02:20Chair Lee: Sen. cortez masto: thanks for being here. As we begin this conversation, the men and women that work in the for service that I know in nevada are the most incredible people. They are there all the time. They are working with our state and local folks. We have incredible agreements in nevada that you have talked about.
▶ 1:02:50Chair Lee: I think we actually set the standard for some of those agreements in our forest service but here is my challenge. The agreements do not help us if they forest service is understaffed and under resourced. That is a problem. So I want to walk through this budget with you.
▶ 1:03:08Chair Lee: If you can explain to me the idea behind why the administration is zeroing out some of these accounts, or if it is transferring them as part of the wildlife -- wildfire suppression and firefighting agency. The wildland fire management looks like it is being funded out -- zeroed out at $2.4 billion. It was allocated in 2026.
▶ 1:03:39Chair Lee: Is that right? The administration wants to zeroed out or transfer it?
▶ 1:03:42Chief Schultz: It would be transferred to the department of interior.
▶ 1:03:46Sen. Wyden: So whatever money is here will go to the department of interior? >> would be the fire service personnel and some individuals and the budget would go to the department of interior.
▶ 1:04:01Sen. Cortez Masto: And the reserve fund, what will happen to that?
▶ 1:04:07Chief Schultz: That reserve fund by the end of the year will be pretty much down to zero so there is an expectation --
▶ 1:04:13Sen. Cortez Masto: So that will not be transferred.
▶ 1:04:17Chief Schultz: If funds are left, they would be transferred.
▶ 1:04:20Sen. Cortez Masto: Otherwise you intend to zero it out.
▶ 1:04:24Chief Schultz: You have to have the funding --
▶ 1:04:27Sen. Cortez Masto: Forest research?
▶ 1:04:30Chief Schultz: Zeroed out.
▶ 1:04:32Sen. Cortez Masto: State private and tribal for stream. That will be zeroed out to pure national for system will be decreased by 24%. So that is my concern. This administration is looking to zero out all this funding.
▶ 1:04:51Sen. Cortez Masto: I'm all about streamlining and figuring out how we manage but if we are challenged with staff already and then we do not give them resources they need to manage, and most people do not realize that it is the largest national for system in the lower 48. Most of it is in nevada. People have no idea. They think of las vegas, which is great, but there are beautiful laces in nevada.
▶ 1:05:21Sen. Cortez Masto: The challenge I have is we are losing staff and resources. The other thing in my concern is this. You talked about fighting these fires, that you have increased the individual firefighters by about 1500.
▶ 1:05:40Chief Schultz: We have a thousand more firefighters fired year to date, plus another 500 folks that are red carded.
▶ 1:05:48Sen. Cortez Masto: How are you managing that long term? I'm hearing from the forest service pay is not there. They do not have housing. They are concerned about their future. So how are you managing that if you do not have resources to do it?
▶ 1:06:03Chief Schultz: You actually all past the firefighter pay raise, which has been helpful. It has helped a lot. Housing is a challenge, not just for firefighters. It is a challenge for employees in general. A lot of our offices are in high cost areas. So it can be challenging but there are cost-of-living adjustments. We have some housing available for firefighters and others.
▶ 1:06:34Chief Schultz: Over time, as we look at facilities and footprint there will be opportunities for increased housing not just for firefighters but employees.
▶ 1:06:43Sen. Cortez Masto: Is that a priority?
▶ 1:06:45Chief Schultz: It is.
▶ 1:06:47Sen. Cortez Masto: As we are talking about firefighters in the forest service or rangeland, what I'm hearing more is about suppression and not prevention of fuel reduction and on the back the management when we are trying to restore a lot of the lands that have been devastated by wildfires. Is that still a focus as you look to transfer into this system?
▶ 1:07:16Sen. Cortez Masto: That all those areas will be focused on fighting fires?
▶ 1:07:23Chief Schultz: Post fire recovery will be a focus. We planted 285 thousand acres, the most in 25 years so that is a big part of recovery. In terms of fuels treatments, our target is three point 6 million acres, just above the average of the last six years. So the trending line is positive.
▶ 1:07:48Chief Schultz: 2024 was kind of a watershed year, the highest we have ever had, but the intent is to still street -- still treat the ground. It is critical that fuels be treated, forests be managed to protect humanity.
▶ 1:08:03Sen. Cortez Masto: The only thing I would ask is I have not seen any type of proposal for this new agency, the firefighting agency. What are the resources and how are you managing? If you would be willing to come to my office or send somebody, this will be helpful.
▶ 1:08:26Chief Schultz: We can come brief you. Just so we're clear, there is a study required last year in our budget so we are looking to at the end of this week send out an rfp. We have sent out a request for information. It has been coordinated. There will be a meeting this week thursday with the appropriators and undersecretary to walk through the proposal. It will take about six months to complete the study.
▶ 1:08:57Chief Schultz: We do not have a plan yet so there will be a study completed on the transfer of that looking at the issues we need to be addressing. The study will come out. We can share that with your team. We do not have all the answers. A third party vendor will inform us.
▶ 1:09:16Sen. Cortez Masto: That is more information than we have ever heard and still no information, but thank you.
▶ 1:09:23Chair Lee: Senator daines.
▶ 1:09:26Sen. Daines: Welcome back. It is good to have you before the committee. Two weeks ago we had a great discussion with secretary burgum on the need to reauthorize the legacy restoration fund and to get my america the beautiful act to the president by july 4. What is that? Our america the beautiful act. My cochair of the national park subcommittee.
▶ 1:09:56Sen. Daines: We do not have chair and ranking member in that committee. I appreciate angus's great bipartisan work on the committee. We just reached 60 cosponsors. We cannot even get mother teresa to name a nice person that many cosponsors but we are there. We have 29 republicans on it now so we have a majority of course democrats have a majority of their caucus as well.
▶ 1:10:25Sen. Daines: On this committee, virtually every member of the committee is now a cosponsor. 15% of that funding will go to the forest service. Do you agree that we need to reauthorize the legacy restoration fund's and get a bill on the president desk as soon as possible and hopefully by july 4?
▶ 1:10:49Chief Schultz: Yes. In the budget their support for reauthorization so that is something we do support. Just so we know, for fiscal year 2021 to 2025, that was about 280 $5 million per year and the funds are used for deferred maintenance. The chairman talked about deferred maintenance issues. We have deferred maintenance for roads, trails, and a lot of that work. It helps with that infrastructure so it is a key piece.
▶ 1:11:20Sen. Daines: I have been a longtime advocate of funding a resolution to the cottonwood versus forrester ruling. This was a 2015 decision from the ninth circuit which held to the endangered species act to require federal force managers to halt projects, even those that might help wildlife, and reinstate consultation on forced plans every time the species is listed where a new habitat is
▶ 1:11:51Sen. Daines: Designated in this is contradictory to a 2007 10 circuit ruling, forest guardians, which only requires cite specific project analysis with new information. What have been the consequences of this split in regard to wildfire mitigation and forest restoration?
▶ 1:12:17Chief Schultz: You have been a champion for this issue for more than 10 years. We have about 302 million board feet currently enjoined under litigation, a lot that tied to the cottonwood decision. Of the enjoined volume, 89% of that is in region one. That is where the bulk of the litigation is.
▶ 1:12:48Chief Schultz: If we can reduce the litigation risk and get that volume moving to provide jobs and clean up the forest, those are critical so this legislation would be a huge fix in moving forward.
▶ 1:13:00Sen. Daines: We have had strong bipartisan support on this committee in getting that fixed and across the finish line and we are going to push hard to get that done as soon as possible. Senator curtis and senator sheehy are leading the act. It seeks to mitigate wildfire severity and that includes the cottonwood fix. Force management stakeholders and states across the country are supportive of the bill.
▶ 1:13:34Sen. Daines: And pushing the U.S. senate to act on this landmark legislation. When you agree that passage of this bill would help resolve forest restoration and management processes from your agency?
▶ 1:13:46Chief Schultz: I would agree. We have been working with the committee. There are good things in the bill. There are a couple weeks we had recommended but we are continuing to work on that.
▶ 1:14:01Sen. Daines: During original negotiations in 2020, I partnered with your predecessor to remove language that would limit acquisitions. Key discussed revision for the future and how it would support the directive to expand hunting and fishing access and remove regulatory barriers?
▶ 1:14:25Chief Schultz: Those funds have been instrumental in easements and acquisitions, providing access so we think it is complementary to the work secretary burgum initiated. We think it complements that.
▶ 1:14:42Sen. Daines: You gave us some troubling maps here. Some fires already igniting in montana. There's also a lot of anxiety about drought, which threatened watersheds, all of which compounded on itself. My question is, can you give us an outlook to help mitigate the severe risks for the coming summer months?
▶ 1:15:06Chief Schultz: Mr. chairman, senator daines income terms of mitigating the conditions, we continue to treat fields and that's the mitigation work is something that goes on year round. In terms of this season, I've talked about some of the things. We've also added additional capacity with folks that are more red carded. So we had a fire down in the red lodge. I think you were on that fire. So we do know that conditions this year do look tough.
▶ 1:15:36Chief Schultz: We had tough conditions last year as well. I will tell you, the forest service is prepared. We have the firefighters hired. Folks are focused on this work. And we will be there. We will attack, we'll be aggressive, and we will have a full suppression strategy for every fire.
▶ 1:15:55Sen. Daines: Thank you.
▶ 1:15:59Chair Lee: Senator hickenlooper.
▶ 1:16:01Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. Chief, thank you for being here, for your focus on this. I do want to point out, before I get started, that red lodge fire is where the yellowstone big horn research association is located, in red lodge, one of the great geo logic research institutions in america, where I did my field work and my studies. Just have that out on the table.
▶ 1:16:27Sen. Hickenlooper: Fix that fire, that is some of the most beautiful country anywhere. That's even as beautiful as some of colorado, it's amazing. Let me change a little bit, chief, to talk a little bit about some of the issues about outdoor recreation. As you know, colorado, it's become a significant part of our economy, right? We used to be just mostly cattle and extraction industries.
▶ 1:16:57Sen. Hickenlooper: Now outdoor recreation is a bigger and bigger role. The national forest plays a huge role in that. Your testimony says that you need to, you're in the process of right-sizing the forest service's trails and recreation facilities. Right sizing, in my experience with government, before I got into government, right sizing was always a bad word. It just basically meant you were going to get the support and the services you needed.
▶ 1:17:25Sen. Hickenlooper: Right sizing within the trails and recreation facilities after it sounds like, sounds like we're going to invest more in our forest. If I talk to people that have been down to the white river national forest in central colorado, that forest sees roughly 15 million visitors a year. Those trails are being used almost 365 days a year, and yet your budget proposes to cut the recreation budget by a third, and the trails' maintenance budget by literally 2/3.
▶ 1:17:58Sen. Hickenlooper: This is despite an internal forest service report from december saying that many districts are unable to conduct basic trail maintenance and that trail miles meeting agency standards are down almost 20%. Can you explain what right sizing looks like when it comes to recreation in our national forests?
▶ 1:18:17Chief Schultz: Thanks for the question. First of all, I want to reiterate, we have over 160 million visitors to the national forest every year. Most people know the national forest and recreation, myself included. So it's a key part of what we do. It's one of the main constituent bases we have. Whether it's motorized, nonmotorized use. There's a lot of use of the national forest system. In terms of the white river national forest, we actually have, that's the most visitor-used forest in the country because of the ski resorts. We actually have 11 ski resorts on that forest. It is the most heavily used.
▶ 1:18:49Chief Schultz: We talk about right sizing. What we say, we've had different forests and different districts that have had folks that have left. If you look at the recreation staffing over the last 10 years, it has decreased. We've actually shifted more resources to work fire over that period of time. Fire 10, 15 years ago was about 25% to 30% of the budget. Today it's about 55% of the staffing budget. Positions, as they became vacant, many were recreation, were transferred into fire fighting positions.
▶ 1:19:16Chief Schultz: So right sizing it is look ago cross the board, looking at where we have positions that are vacant, we have positions that we need to fill, and also looking at how we push resources to the field. So I mentioned in my testimony that we expect overtime to see more resources, personnel resources, to the forest and to the districts, as we get through this reorganization effort. So that's part of it. Where do we have gaps?
▶ 1:19:38Chief Schultz: Where do we have forest that have given the primary functions to have less capacity than what we need or shifting resources over time?
▶ 1:19:47Sen. Hickenlooper: I recognize that, and I understand what that approach means intellectually. But I'm afraid what you're facing is a situation where you don't have the resources, in other words, you're borrowing from peter to pay paul. When you get to places like the white river national forest, you cut by 2/3 the trail support there, there's going to be damage. It will be long-term damage. When we get these rains, they're going to come all at once and wash out large portions of trails.
▶ 1:20:16Sen. Hickenlooper: It's going to reduce how people appreciate the forest. We have a whole bunch of partners, communities, volunteers out there working on trails. Those partners can't step in right now, not because they don't want to, because the forest district is too short staffed, even to execute agreement for the work or get a local staffer to examine and supervise the trail work. We can't even keep the volunteers at work in these budget restricted times.
▶ 1:20:48Sen. Hickenlooper: Again, I guess I'm arguing you need more money, and hopefully we can get some more, put some more resources in front of you.
▶ 1:20:56Chief Schultz: Just to put in context, when we came in, we had about a $750 million shortfall. There was actually a hiring freeze put in place in 2024 that was extended into 2025. We have, as was mentioned previously, we've had about 6,000 employees that have taken b.p.r. This year we're hiring seasonal employees. We're hiring 2,000 seasonal employees, three-quarters are recreation-focused folks. In particular, in summit county, we have tremendous partnerships in summit county, as you know full well.
▶ 1:21:28Chief Schultz: They actually have a levee on many of the homeowners there, and that goes to fund forest service employees and seasonal work. We have a tremendous partnership there. This is actually a molds for the rest of the country in terms of how we can partner with local government and local partners to get work done.
▶ 1:21:44Sen. Hickenlooper: Tell they will you, just like I'm telling you, they don't have the personnel in the forest service to keep that partnership active or sufficiently active, and they look at, you know, the resulting in millions of unspent grant funds that they could get access to, but again, want backlog, because of staff shortages, has just been too much.
▶ 1:22:06Chief Schultz: Last year, I would agree that was the case this year that's not the case.
▶ 1:22:10Sen. Hickenlooper: We'll get you back in the fall. I'm taking notes.
▶ 1:22:13Chief Schultz: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:22:15Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:22:18Sen. Risch: I'm glad to see you here for the committee. This is the first idahoan to run the forest services since I was governor, which has been some time ago. And that one was dale bosworth, a classmate of mine in forestry school. You and I didn't go to forestry school at the same time. There's a little bit of a gap there. We hear great things about what you're doing over there and really appreciate it. Let me first of all talk about a bipartisan issue that virtually everyone on this committee is tied into.
▶ 1:22:50Sen. Risch: And that's the s.r.s. They operate under a national charter, and the charter expired in december of 2023. It was a two-year charter. And last year, of course, the charter was reauthorized, and it needs to be signed. Where are we on that?
▶ 1:23:11Chief Schultz: Mr. chairman, senator risch, that is before the secretary. She's reviewing it right now. That's something we would anticipate in the next couple of weeks. We've been pushing on that issue, and something she's evaluating right now.
▶ 1:23:22Sen. Risch: When I see her, I'm going to talk to her about it. When you see her, I think I can speak for this entire committee we are really, really interested in that issue. We've all got public lands, and it's incredibly important to us. I know there's a stack of papers sitting on her desk, tell her to put it on the top. We really need it. Appreciate what you're doing overall.
▶ 1:23:48Sen. Risch: The new guidance that we're supposed to get for conditions for grants and agreements, how you coming on that?
▶ 1:23:57Chief Schultz: We're actually doing a lot better. So in an effort to reduce, we had over 260 terms and conditions and agreements that are promulgated through the process for issuing grants. That has been streamlined, and in doing the streamlining, it's created some consternation from some of our partners, particularly states. We've been working through that, and idaho has taken the lead on that. They've identified up to 11 issues. I think we've identified seven or eight issues of those already just in the last week.
▶ 1:24:26Chief Schultz: There's been three different ongoing discussions. We made a lot of progress working with the state forestry, the state, and we're also working with the national association of state foresters. So I think we've made good progress on that issue. We continue to tweak a couple of things, but we're definitely moving in the right direction.
▶ 1:24:42Sen. Risch: Appreciate that, and I do get good reports that you guys are responsive. In my personal experience, you personal and the department has been very responsive since you've taken over. We appreciate that. And I'm going to yield back time, because good access to them, and they always respond and appreciate that. Appreciate what you're doing.
▶ 1:25:00Chief Schultz: Thank you, sir.
▶ 1:25:05Chair Lee: Senator cantwell.
▶ 1:25:09Sen. Cantwell: Fire season, as we get these predictions, are always very dramatic for us. You know, any kind of dryer years you have less snow pack, you have less water. But by august, the entire state of washington, I think this is the august edition here, which includes my colleagues from idaho, as he was just discussing.
▶ 1:25:38Sen. Cantwell: And under very serious fire threat. But I'm very concerned, because we don't seem to be prepared on the front lines here, because in the new restrictions on the department of agriculture grants and contract, the state of washington cannot really 49 million in funding to help fight fires and manage our forest. That includes $28 million in community wildfire defense grants.
▶ 1:26:05Sen. Cantwell: And it means spokane valley fire is not received over five million to prepare for wildfire. And the reason that's so dangerous is because we had just on the other side of spokane a very devastating fire a couple of years ago. Literally some people have said spokane could be the first major city, or they did say that, and then we obviously had the pal sides fire, which now we have a spokane valley fire person saying we are trying to avoid being the palisades.
▶ 1:26:38Sen. Cantwell: And yet they're not getting the risk, the money to help alleviate this risk. They've not received $4 million to clear trees along 180 miles of fire-prone lines in places like twist and winthrop, where we had the carlton complex fire. That was devastating. Wildfires have burned approximately 59% of the metal valley watershed, destroyed homes, thousands of dollars of fire assistance and state fire grants were being held up.
▶ 1:27:08Sen. Cantwell: 84% of the fire department in the state of washington are partly or entirely volunteers, so this is life line money for these individuals. So I think in addition, hundreds of thousands of dollars of hazardous fuel reduction is not going out to these communities, and then the state can't do the forest work, because the six million, the good neighbor authority funds aren't moving. So these are various programs that help us reduce this risk that we know is coming.
▶ 1:27:38Sen. Cantwell: How can we get your commitment to reverse that and get the money out the door?
▶ 1:27:43Chief Schultz: Mr. chairman, senator cantwell, as I mentioned, we've been working with the states on this issue. Many of the states have since signed agreements. After that, we walk through and explain things. There's been multiple webinars with the states. Your state forester has been at the table. I'm confident, with regards specifically to fire fighting, we have a master agreement, we have a deviation from that process that will extend through the rest of the year.
▶ 1:28:10Chief Schultz: So in terms of fire fighting capacity, that is not being impacted when it comes to local grant money.
▶ 1:28:16Sen. Cantwell: Dollars aren't out the door. When are the dollars going to be out the door? That's what I want to know. Paperwork isn't what we need right now. What we need is -- these are funds that flow every year normally, but now aren't flowing. And I would say the risk has only increased. I just need a commitment from you that this is going to get resolved and the money is going to get out the door soon.
▶ 1:28:38Chief Schultz: We're working to resolve it right now.
▶ 1:28:41Sen. Cantwell: What will resolve it?
▶ 1:28:43Chief Schultz: There's litigation by some states on some of these issues. So some of this is in the courts. The states can sign these agreements tomorrow if they choose to sign them.
▶ 1:28:52Sen. Cantwell: Agreement? What's different from where we've been before and why are we having this problem now where these funds are being held up? I'm sure it's the terms that you guys have put in place. The terms and conditions. So now I'm trying to say, are you going to resolve that, or are you going say, yes, it's going to be held up in a legal battle because I put out new terms and conditions?
▶ 1:29:14Chief Schultz: We are working through this issue literally most days this week, we're having discussions with the state foresters, including the state of washington to work through these issues. So I don't have a resolution date just yet. Like I said, we've resolved seven or eight of the main issues that have been identified by the states. There's still a handful of other issues we're still working on.
▶ 1:29:36Senator Cantwell: What are you still working on?
▶ 1:29:39Chief Schultz: We are explaining the rationale behind the terms and conditions.
▶ 1:29:42Sen. Cantwell: I don't like the terms and conditions, balls the money isn't flowing in a fire year that is grown in intensity. I'm just saying, I need a commitment that you're going to resolve those. If you're going to keep pushing on terms and conditions, that stop fire preparation dollars that have historically been distributed from being distributed, I think you need to tell the committee why you're doing e doing that and what it is and why it should be held up. I also have a question for the record, Mr.
▶ 1:30:09Sen. Cantwell: Chairman, because I can see my time is expired, where are the seattle and lab capabilities going to be headquartered? These are the science issues that resolve around our northwest forest, and if you have a quick answer for that right now, yes, go ahead.
▶ 1:30:27Chief Schultz: There's been a lot of questions about the 57 sites that we've identified, which included the site you're mentioning. Specifically on that site, we have not made any determinations of closing any facilities yet. We're evaluating those. That site actually has six buildings on it. There's a forest supervisor's office about 10 miles down the road, we're actually at relocating the forest supervisor's office, which is in a lease probably to that site. So we have not made any determinations about closing facilities.
▶ 1:30:55Chief Schultz: We're evaluating all of the facilities right now to make sure that we can maintain the appropriate footprint for research within the budgets that we have.
▶ 1:31:04Sen. Cantwell: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I do need answers to the first question and soon. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:31:10Chair Lee: Senator king.
▶ 1:31:12Sen. King: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. schultz, I've always thought budget are policy. Budget represent priorities. It's fascinating to me that if you add together the cuts forest service is 44%. Forest research, 100%. State private and travel forestry, 100%. That pretty much exactly equals the proposed billion dollars in the reconciliation bill for the ballroom.
▶ 1:31:40Sen. King: So the president's ballroom has a higher priority than forest research, state and travel forestry, forest service operations. Another way to look at it in perspective is that number represents 3/10 of 1% of the proposed increase in the defense budget this year to $1.5 trillion. I don't understand the priorities here. I just don't think it makes any sense.
▶ 1:32:06Sen. King: I love, there's a sentence that we should send to the smithsonian, I think. The budget eliminates the account for state, private, and travel forestry funding to ensure fiscal responsibility and to better balance the appropriate roles of federal and state government. That's a euphemism for we've got the gold mine, you get the shaft. You're shafting the states and the tribes. 10 times a day you used the word partnership.
▶ 1:32:35Sen. King: If ain't a partnership if one side has to give up everything and the other side says this is what we're going to do, and we're not going to give you any money to do it. Why in the world are you zeroing out the basis for the partnership that you keep talking about? Why should anybody partner with you when, on the one hand, you say here are terms and conditions, but by the way, we're not going to give you the money we've given you year after year? What's the justification for that?
▶ 1:33:02Chief Schultz: Thanks for the question. In many cases, the partnership that is we have, they're mutually beneficial. That's how it works. Historically, the state and private funding, about $300 million. And that funding was supporting a lot of different programs for states. What we've seen over time, though, is that there is a need to take a look at those programs and how they're funded and the responsibility of the states and other partners.
▶ 1:33:25Sen. King: It's a zero value? It's gone from $310 million to zero. So you're saying there's no value in those expenditures whatsoever?
▶ 1:33:36Chief Schultz: I mentioned, I worked in state government for over 25 years before I came into this role. And there has always been concerns and questions about the appropriate role of the federal funding versus state funding. We've seen different states address that differently. Some states have increased funding for the state and private programs through the state legislatures, and others have not. So it's something that's been an ongoing issue and a discussion about how much that burden is born by states or the federal government.
▶ 1:34:01Sen. King: How much of the burden, your budget says zero for the federal government as far as the states are concerned. Let's talk about research. There's been a lot of discussion about fires and fire suppression. Research is part of preparing. Research is part of understanding what's going on in the forest. You're zeroing out research. Again, that just doesn't make any sense to me. You that's one of the essential core functions of the fire service, and you're saying it doesn't matter anymore, we're not going to do research.
▶ 1:34:32Chief Schultz: We're not saying research won't be done. It will just be done by different entities. Currently right now we have partnerships with universities, private sector, and a greater there of that would occur --
▶ 1:34:43Sen. King: They're going to pay for it. The forest service is out of the research?
▶ 1:34:49Chief Schultz: Under this proposal, that would shift. Research would be more predominantly funded by states, universities, outside entities.
▶ 1:34:57Sen. King: And we're going to fund the ballroom, which is cutting the research so we can fund the ballroom. I just want to be clear. You're not closing experimental forests, but you're cutting off the research fund. You call it an experimental forest open, but if there's no staff, operational support, research infrastructure, isn't that kind of a hollow promise that we're going to have research, we're going to have experimental forests, but not have the research staff to support it?
▶ 1:35:28Chief Schultz: A couple of different things. We're talking about the reorganization different than what's in the budget. The reorganization is what we talked about keeping those experimental forests and evaluating the facilities and the buildings on those. In some cases, we have no employees that some of those employees right now. We're taking a hard look at our footprint and what we can afford, and look where it makes sense to consolidate, we will do that.
▶ 1:35:50Sen. King: It would be one thing if you were adjusting these budget and saying we've analyze this had and done a study. But to come back and say zero for research, zero for supporting the work of the states and the tribes, and 35% less for operations, finally, one of the cuts, amazingly, is 35% of cuts for capital improvement and maintenance. Mr. shultz, not doing maintenance is debt. The maintenance is going to have to be done.
▶ 1:36:21Sen. King: Chances are when it's finally done, it's going to cost more. So again, cutting, I've never heard anybody say, well, we're doing too much maintenance on our national forests. What's the justification for cutting it?
▶ 1:36:37Chief Schultz: That's where the support for the american great outdoors act, as we discussed previously, there is funding in there. That money could be used for ongoing deferred maintenance of trails, roads, infrastructure.
▶ 1:36:49Sen. King: You're counting on that in order to justify the significant cuts in the budget?
▶ 1:36:56Chief Schultz: That's part of how that would be funding, yes, sir.
▶ 1:36:59Sen. King: That's the best thing you said so far, the great american outdoors act, I think it will remedy some of those things. I appreciate it, but I honestly don't understand some of the priorities here, because you're talking about a relatively small amount of money being saved compared to, as I mentioned, the increased proposed in the defense budget or other priorities in the present. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:37:27Chair Lee: Senator hirono?
▶ 1:37:30Sen. Hirono: Thank you, Mr. chairman. You're the chief of the forest service. Aren't you supposed to be fighting for the fire service? Yes or no?
▶ 1:37:47Chief Schultz: I fight for the forest service every day.
▶ 1:37:50Sen. Hirono: Good. But meanwhile, I'm listening to my colleagues talking about how you're zeroing out research, and there are all kinds of problematic cuts that is happening within the forest service, and I don't see you fighting for them, except to say, oh, well, we're partnering. Let me get to my question. The institute of pacific island forestry in hawaii is on the forest service's list of research and development services slated for closure.
▶ 1:38:22Sen. Hirono: This institute services seven jurisdiction that is cover an area as large as the continental U.S. were you aware of that?
▶ 1:38:30Chief Schultz: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:38:32Sen. Hirono: And has space and equipment found no where else in the pacific region. Were a wear of that?
▶ 1:38:38Chief Schultz: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:38:39Sen. Hirono: While you claim that these closures are an effort to move leadership closer to the forest and communities they serve, this institute is already located in a very community that it serves. Are you aware of that?
▶ 1:38:54Chief Schultz: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:38:55Sen. Hirono: People back home are very concerned about this announcement, and I have yet to hear from anyone who thinks it's a good idea. So during your briefing of chris french, your associate chief, hosted with my staff six weeks ago, he stated that closing the facility is strictly a business decision and that it's deferred maintenance needs are more than $17 million. I would like to have information from you specifically justifying how you got this $17 million.
▶ 1:39:26Sen. Hirono: Because I would dispute that amount as what is necessary for deferred maintenance. Can you get me that information?
▶ 1:39:32Chief Schultz: I've got some information here today to share with you.
▶ 1:39:35Sen. Hirono: I have repeatedly requested this information about the $17 million, and so far I have not been provided any details to support that figure, so you are sitting here telling me that you will get me that by the end of today?
▶ 1:39:52Chief Schultz: I will give it to you right now, ma'am. The $17 million--
▶ 1:39:57Sen. Hirono: You can give me that and I can look at it. You don't have to justify right at the moment, although ok. No one I talk with who has any familiarity with the facility, which you have familiarity with the area covered, understands what you are doing with closing the facilities.
▶ 1:40:26Sen. Hirono: I'm told that this is a business decision. I would like to make sure that it really is a business decision, that you are zeroing out the funding, that you're closing this facility. Another question I have, you note that the people who are currently at the forest service at the institute will not be forced to relocate outside of hawaii. Can you assure me of that?
▶ 1:40:56Chief Schultz: Yes, that is true.
▶ 1:40:59Sen. Hirono: Ok. We're reminded that the institute is authorized in law, the forest service has reassured us you will carry out your congressional mandate under the law, yet you're zeroing out the research and development budget and the facilities slated for closure. How can you carry out the mandate?
▶ 1:41:23Chief Schultz: That facility currently is one that we're just looking at. We have not made a determination to close that facility. That is being evaluated, as are all of the --
▶ 1:41:32Sen. Hirono: I'm running out of time. I have another important two ask you. We're told you're planning to close the facility, so if that's not happening, you need to give me that information. On friday, congress received a letter from secretary rollins, which the secretary characterized ads fulfilling congressional reporting requirements to study the suitability and feasibility of establishing a national forest in hawaii. This is a report that requires you to engage in analysis.
▶ 1:42:03Sen. Hirono: All we get is a letter with your conclusion.
▶ 1:42:06Chief Schultz: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:42:07Sen. Hirono: Why isn't it attached to the letter you sent us? Why was it not attached to the letter justifying your conclusions?
▶ 1:42:17Chief Schultz: I don't know. I did not send that letter.
▶ 1:42:20Sen. Hirono: Does it not make sense to you we should have gotten that report?
▶ 1:42:23Chief Schultz: I will provide you that report.
▶ 1:42:28Sen. Hirono: Mr. chairman, I would think that when congress asks for a report, it should get report, not just a letter saying, oh, guess what, we did a study which took three years, but there's no report that justifies their conclusions, there is no need for a national forest in hawaii. This is not acceptable. Mr. chairman, do you consider this to be acceptable that we are not given a report that we requested and the chief sits there and says he will hand us the report.
▶ 1:42:55Sen. Hirono: Why wasn't it there with the study so that I don't have to use up my time asking him for a report that should have been attached to a letter?
▶ 1:43:04Chair Lee: Your time is expired. I'm sure he will get you any report.
▶ 1:43:08Sen. Hirono: I hope I'm making myself very clear. He continuously does this. Either the people who testify do not have the information that they know we're going to ask for or they make us use up our fame. It should have happened. I did not need to use five minutes of my time only to be told, oh, you have it.
▶ 1:43:34Sen. Hoeven: Thanks for being here. Thanks for your visit to our state. We appreciate it. Look forward to having you out there again. As you know very well, we have multiple use, and that includes grazing, that includes tourism, that includes energy development, and all those coexist very well, and we appreciate your willingness to work with all our different groups for all those purposes.
▶ 1:44:03Sen. Hoeven: I see that sewer looking at reforming the federal wild life management plan. Talking about that, as you know, that's very important to our grazers out there, that we have good collaboration with the forest service 09 wildfire management.
▶ 1:44:28Chief Schultz: Thanks for the question. Yes, we're looking at the unification of the fire service, which would include moving the forest service fire program to the department of interior. That would be proposed for the 2027 budget. As I mentioned, there is a study that was required by congress for us to con form with. That r.f.p. Will be released on friday. We expect once that r.f.p. Will evaluate the proposals, and that will be completed over the next six months.
▶ 1:44:53Chief Schultz: So some of the questions you ask in terms of how will that coordination and communication will occur will be some of the things that are addressed on an ongoing basis. But you're right, the secretary has made it a point, one of the things we pointed out is the critical nature of the ranching community to be a partner on fires, so when there is a wildfire, having a liaison from that ranching community, whether it's the landowner, the permittee, advising as a liaison to the team, so that those interests and conditioners can
▶ 1:45:24Chief Schultz: Be relayed, whether it's tactics in terms of where certain features might be, what equipment might be, values at risk, so that's something we definitely prioritize, that ranching community participation and involvement in the suppression of wildfires.
▶ 1:45:39Sen. Hoeven: You hit the nail on the head. We want to make sure there's really good coordination there. That's actually in the forest service's interest, too, because of all the volunteer firefighters we have. Appreciate that, and again, you hit the nail on the head there. The other, as I mentioned before, but the noxious weeds program is vital to continue.
▶ 1:45:59Sen. Hoeven: Those noxious weeds, I mean, if anybody has any, is wondering about it, they need to go out there and just try to walk through a pasture that's full of those, and they'll recognize right away how important it is that you work with us on them. Again, address the funding for a meant to make sure we continue that program.
▶ 1:46:17Chief Schultz: Yes, sir. Fiscal year 2026, $1.3 million once again allocated for north dakota for that program.
▶ 1:46:26Seven Hoeven: That's just seattlely important. Talk to me about the joint chiefs program, as you know senator bennett and I have sponsored legislation. Talk about how you're tying and how it's helpful for you.
▶ 1:46:38Chief Schultz: The joint programs program has been beneficial. It's something we coordinate on to identify joint projects that benefit both private land and federal land and state lands. Projects come up through a process that they're evaluated, and then funding typically upwards of a half a million dollars can be allocated. We have projects that are in the loop that we've been working on for some years, and there's an evaluation process every year to prioritize those projects.
▶ 1:47:02Sen. Hoeven: Also talk to me about, you and I talked about prairie dogs. Basically our guys need bigger buffer zones. It's just, it just does not work with what we have right now. What can you tell me about how you're trying to make sure we have bigger buffer zones and that we make sure that those things just go out of control? And it can happen so fast. And you've been out there and seen the impacts.
▶ 1:47:28Chief Schultz: Actually, we've worked with a group of permittees in north dakota to come up with recommendations. So I think we had a list of about 10 recommendations that they submitted to us that we developed jointly, and that's something we're working on right now.
▶ 1:47:42Sen. Hoeven: That's verien couraging. We understand you got a job to do, but those are very common sense recommendations, so that's very much appreciated. Thank you, thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:47:54Chair Lee: Senator padilla.
▶ 1:47:56Sen. Padilla: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Chief, first of all, thank you for your service. In my statement of questioning by sharing my concerns regarding the recent reorganization announcement. I know there's a lot in there to pick apart, but I wanted to focus specifically on the closure of six of the eight research facilities in california. Mr.
▶ 1:48:22Sen. Padilla: Chairman, I'd like to enter into the record a letter from california natural resources agency secretary that echos my concerns.
▶ 1:48:31Chair Lee: Without objection.
▶ 1:48:33Sen. Padilla: Thank you. I appreciate you briefed my staff on the reorganization, but I want to ask that you follow up with your rationale for the closures in writing, as well as to provide a clear cost benefit analysis and assurances that ongoing research will not last due to these closures. Is that something you can provide?
▶ 1:48:55Chief Schultz: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:48:56Sen. Padilla: Thank you very much. Elsewhere in the budget proposal, you suggest eliminating existing state and volunteer fire assistance programs which were funded in fiscal year 2026 at levels of $76 billion and $21 billion respectively.
▶ 1:49:17Sen. Padilla: That's suggested to be replaced with just $2.8 million for a new category of "rural fire assistance grants." based on my math, this is functionally more than 97% cut. These programs provide vital support to state and fire entities, which together respond and suppress the vast majority of igniters across the country. That's just in california.
▶ 1:49:43Sen. Padilla: Please explain to the committee how you expect state and volunteer fire departments to make up for this staggering cut. And please don't place a.I. I've asked this question to a lot of people who sat in this chair about your proposal before, and you're not going to get there.
▶ 1:49:58Chief Schultz: I'm not an expert in a.I., so I won't point that out. I think what we've seen is in general in the 2027 budget, the fire program moved from the forest service to the department of interior. In the 2027 budget, we don't have the fire fighting program. So I think what you did see is it was $2.8 million of the department of interior funding that would pick that up, and the other program that you're referencing, the state fire assistance and the volunteer fire assistance, that program is not continued. So there is replacement funding.
▶ 1:50:29Chief Schultz: In terms of how it would get replaced, it would have to be done on a local level. We have other programs. We have the excess property program that local government can pick up excess equipment from the military at no charge. And that can transfer to those entities, so there are other programs in addition to the v.f.a. And f.f.a.
▶ 1:50:49Sen. Padilla: Other programs, but not making them whole with this, disagreeing with my assessment. So you understand my concern. Lionel messi resources, less capacity, increased risk, it's going to lead to more loss and negative impact for our communities. Now, elsewhere in the proposed budget, you propose moving the hazardous fuels budget line tammany U.S. whileland fire service.
▶ 1:51:19Sen. Padilla: The hazards fuel budget has previously been used to accomplish prescribed fire and other risk reduction projects on land managed by the forest service. Not just me, want just my side of the aisle, you've heard this concern from both sides of the aisle. The concern that this risk separating wildfire risk reduction from landscape managers who had the expertise to actually reduce risk is my specific concern here today. So chief, how will the new U.S.
▶ 1:51:49Sen. Padilla: Wildland fire service partner with land managers and the forest service experts to accomplish critical fuels reduction projects, including but not limited to prescribed fire?
▶ 1:52:00Chief Schultz: That's a very good question. And that's one of the --
▶ 1:52:03Sen. Padilla: That's why I'm asking.
▶ 1:52:05Chief Schultz: Right now, those functions are integrated within the forest service.
▶ 1:52:09Sen. Padilla: You seek to disagree?
▶ 1:52:12Chief Schultz: That's right. The forest service focuses on land management, and the wildland fire service focuses on suppression and the fuel as well. So that program would transfer over there, but it's going to require coordination, there's no doubt.
▶ 1:52:24Sen. Padilla: How is it going to happen?
▶ 1:52:27Chief Schultz: Right now it's not implemented yet, so it's not worked out yet.
▶ 1:52:31Sen. Padilla: Don't you think you need to work that out before you suggest a change?
▶ 1:52:35Chief Schultz: The department of interior has already implemented it right now. So the land managers and the fire service are having those conversations.
▶ 1:52:43Sen. Padilla: They are implementing?
▶ 1:52:45Chief Schultz: No, the department of interior, within the department of interior, has implemented the fire service. So they've consolidated the fire program within d.o.I. We are going to look to them to see what lessons they've learned this year, and that will inform how we proceed.
▶ 1:52:59Sen. Padilla: So you agree this is, I guess -- chief it's a definite area.
▶ 1:53:04Sen. Padilla: And an area on followup on how to maintain the expertise into prescribed fires.
▶ 1:53:15Chief Schultz: That's one of my questions, the study that's going going out at the end of this week is going to ask those questions.
▶ 1:53:23Chief Schultz: Senator gallego.
▶ 1:53:24Sen. Gallego: Thank you. The 2025 white stage and dragon wildfires really affected over 205,000 acres of public land in air war. The majority of which is is the on north district. What is the forest service timeline for completing the fire, and what resources, personnel funding, contracted cruise are currently dedicated to that effort, and how is it affected?
▶ 1:53:54Sen. Gallego: The reason we ask, northern areas is entirely based on the survival and the viability of the forest, especially when it comes to tourism.
▶ 1:54:05Chief Schultz: I don't have the specifics on that one. I'll have to get back to you. But in general, our plans tend to happen within a three to five-year time frame, and we'll look at that and evaluate the ground and see what needs to be done and see what funding is available. We have funding for fire recovery, but that's used across the country. That's definitely an area we're taking a hard look at.
▶ 1:54:26Sen. Gallego: Three to five years is very difficult for that. I mean, it's tough enough with tourism economy is hurting just because of costs and everything else like that, and we don't have a healthy forest to visit. We're going see a lot of the mom and pop operations shut down, because they just don't have the economic bandwidth to actually survive the three to five years. I really encourage to you try to, if possible, move up the time table. I'll might have on to other questions.
▶ 1:54:55Sen. Gallego: The pressing needs of the restoration act last year, I want to keep pushing for, I think it would be very helpful in terms of moving forwards forward in a faster manner. The rule that affects 45 million acres across 37 states, including arizona, is extremely important, again, for healthy forests and economic tourism.
▶ 1:55:22Sen. Gallego: Unfortunately, this administration is moving at break neck speed to roll it back. So I want to spend a couple of minutes getting back, around this rule and wildfire and how they work together. The areas undergo wildfire prevention hazardous fuels reduction, nearly two million acres have received fuel treatment in the recent years. Fires are also most likely to be started in areas due to human activity, so not just smoking or starting fires, but also chains from towing things of that nature.
▶ 1:55:52Sen. Gallego: That usually happens a lot in arizona. And so the protections can help reduce all this ignition risk, especially this year, because if you've seen with ill anyone -- he will anyone owe, forest service staff is facing reorganization, so I really strongly question the wisdom of trying to roll back another layer of fire protection right now, as I said, especially with how brittle and how dry the west is right now.
▶ 1:56:22Sen. Gallego: How did the forest service take fire risk into account when growing back the rule? How do you account for how this is going to be changing?
▶ 1:56:34Chief Schultz: We've initiated a rule making process. We expect it to come out probably sometime this summer, and we're still evaluating alternatives. There's been no decision made on this as of yet. In terms of the issue, with the intent behind this, to look at increasing access.
▶ 1:56:49Chief Schultz: So whether it's for public access, whether it's for access for management, also access for fire fighting, we have a lot of roads that are in roadless areas, so when those maps were drawn, initially back in the 1970's when we looked at what areas, there are roads. So we're looking at areas to protect communities first and foremost, and also areas that increase access, whether it's for active management.
▶ 1:57:15Chief Schultz: But the idea that we're going to put a bunch of roads up in the high elevation areas, it's not going to happen. We want to provide flexibility to protect communities and increase access for the public.
▶ 1:57:29Senegal Gal: It's not an issue of where it is or elevation. The question that I have is when you guys are going through this process, and you study it, are you accounting for the in fact you may increase the risk of forest fires by actually creating more access points for ignition to happen? From my experience in arizona, what we've seen is most of the forest fires are being start, the massive ones are being started near existing roads, whether federal, state, local, tribal, whatever it is.
▶ 1:58:00Senegal Gal: It's almost, a big majority come from the fact that they're close to populations, verse some of the denser forest areas, not to have it, and if they are, they're started by lightning.
▶ 1:58:13Chief Schultz: Over time, what we've seen is we've seen more human-caused fire stats that it is natural. You mentioned lightning. It used to be about 50-50. Now it's increased above 50-50. Where the people are is we tend to see more fires.
▶ 1:58:28Sen. Gallego: They tend to follow roads. Thank you, I yield back.
▶ 1:58:32Chair Lee: Senator heinrich.
▶ 1:58:34Sen. Heinrich: I want to associate myself with senator gallego's comments. I think you need to really take a close look at that. Those areas tend to be security habitat in new mexico and are incredibly valued. It's fine to be able, but the tool we have right now is very flexible. You can do e go in there, but afterwards the roads get shut to create that security habitat for deer and elk.
▶ 1:59:03Sen. Heinrich: I'm not going to do a second round of questions, but I want to raise something we've been hearing around the land and water conservation fund. First, I'm very glad to hear the administration's support for reauthorizing the great american outdoors act. I think that was one of the greatest achievements of their first, this administration's first term.
▶ 1:59:25Sen. Heinrich: But with regard to using the land and water conservation fund, we've heard things like having an arbitrary rule that says you're not eligible for it, acquisition projects, if you have a certain percentage of public land in your county. What I would suggest to you and to the administration is rather than any sort of arbitrary rule, look for projects that have community support. I think that's the bar that makes sense.
▶ 1:59:57Sen. Heinrich: So if you're dealing with a county that doesn't have community support for a given project, don't fund it in the budget. But if you have a county, you know, we've done projects in grant county and new mexico that has over 50% public land, but the local community really felt those projects made sense and really supported those projects, and I think that's a much smarter, more nuanced way to approach it than any sort of one
▶ 2:00:27Sen. Heinrich: Size fits all rule. With that, I defer back to the chair.
▶ 2:00:31Chief Schultz: I would agree with you. I think that's the intent. We're looking for public support.
▶ 2:00:38Chair Lee: Thanks so much. That's going to conclude today's hearing. Thank you, chief schultz, for being here. You answered our questions well. You're serving our country with exceptional strength and clarity, and I deeply appreciate that. I also want to thank my colleagues for being here today, for their questions. Any senator who would like to submit additional questions for the record may do so. The deadline for submitting those questions will be at 6:00 p.m. Tomorrow, thursday, may 14.
▶ 2:01:11Chair Lee: Additionally, senators will have until 6:00 p.m. Next wednesday, may 20, to add any statements to the record. Thanks again for your testimony. And the hearing stands adjourned.