▶ 0:37:18>> come to order. I apologize to the two witnesses and my colleagues. Nothing is unavoidable, but keeping today's schedule on time and I will do best to make it up to my colleagues in particular and are witnesses, I'm not too worried about you two being angry since you need our cooperation.
▶ 0:37:46Sen. Blumenthal: Since none of us have ever been late to a committee meeting, we will excuse you just this once.
▶ 0:37:51Chair Moran: That is so kind of you. We are here to hear the testimony and consider the nominations of two individuals, gary shatswell and michael tier ney.
▶ 0:38:16Chair Moran: I appreciate your willingness to serve, there are important issues that come with your positions and necessary questions to determine qualification capabilities and the appropriateness of confirming your nomination. It is particularly true when there was the rollout of new electronic health records.
▶ 0:38:38Chair Moran: It is back on track after a lengthy pause and artificial intelligence is transforming every sector, it is critical to the v.a. To have a strong and qualified information officer. Safeguard data and integrate automation likewise look forward to hearing from Mr.
▶ 0:39:04Chair Moran: Tierney about how if confirmed he would increase accountability, transparency and trust among veterans, caregivers, survivors and staff members as well as taxpayers and the american public. The v.a. As we know supports millions of veterans and beneficiaries, employees hundreds of thousands of employees and operates regional offices and cemeteries around the globe.
▶ 0:39:34Chair Moran: Accountability is not an option, it's essential. I'm grateful to both of you for being here and your willingness and eagerness to take on the challenges I just described and all the other challenges we may not recognize today and with that ideal to the ranking member. Senator blumenthal?
▶ 0:39:54Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you, Mr. chairman. These are two critical positions. Whistleblowers play a critical role in bringing fraud, waste, and abuse to light and they can save lives in the fiscal year 2025 there were more than 4300 complaints but only 32 disciplinary recommendations.
▶ 0:40:24Sen. Blumenthal: Va is unable to track corrective actions taken in whistleblower cases and does not have accurate data about settlement agreements. This year's budget proposal fails to keep pace with inflation and keep staffing levels stagnant.
▶ 0:40:45Sen. Blumenthal: The request does not account for additional manpower needed for tracking cases as recommended by the gao and doesn't account for the 31% increase during the fiscal year 2025 and the budget request would not support the department's intent to expand the office's authority to proactively investigate unreported whistleblower retaliation which would increase the workload immensely.
▶ 0:41:14Sen. Blumenthal: This is a recipe for continued failure. And if confirmed , Mr.tierney -- if confirmed, Mr. tierney, you will have to demonstrate the backbone to stand up to this administration and this president and say, we need to protect whistleblowers. We need to do more and invest more and to provide the tools and authorities needed to invest and do this job. We owe it to our veterans.
▶ 0:41:45Sen. Blumenthal: Likewise if you are confirmed, Mr. shatswell, you will be confirmed for managing the technology system that has been in the system for close to 60 years. Like senator moran has been a classic story of government failure. And it is ongoing and I'm not going to go into details. I'm going to ask that my full statement be put in the record.
▶ 0:42:13Chair Moran: Without objection.
▶ 0:42:16Sen. Blumenthal: This system has suffered from massive cost overruns and it is still failing to work at 10 or 15 years ago and we need your commitment to ensure that there are guardrails and how the v.a. Uses ai and automation, now features that could not have been envisioned 15 years ago.
▶ 0:42:45Sen. Blumenthal: So I look forward to hearing more from you about your plans for the future and I hope that they will l.a. Some of the concerns that I think we have and should have about whether you will be independent sufficiently to say to the administration, this ain't working for our veterans because we need that independence. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:43:12Chair Moran: Senator blumenthal. Mr. shatswell and Mr. tierney, would you please stand and raise your right hands? Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? Please respond affirmatively and the record should note both have done so. Please be seated. Mr. shatswell, you are now recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:43:41Mr. Shatswell: Chairman, wrecking member blumenthal and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today is the nominee to serve for the assistant secretary of information and technology and chief information officer for the department of veterans affairs. I'm deeply grateful to the president, president donald j.
▶ 0:44:04Mr. Shatswell: Trump, for this honor and his confidence in me and I'm secretary -- thankful to the secretary for his trust. I sit before you a man who loves god, my family, and my country, so I begin with god. I'm filled with gratitude to my lord and savior jesus christ whose words have guided 4 -- I've guided my life. In john 15 he says there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend.
▶ 0:44:35Mr. Shatswell: Those words describe that you thousand of every man and woman who has worn this nation's uniform. If confirmed honoring their sacrifice and service will be a guiding light to my family and want to acknowledge my three amazing children watching online , julia, elizabeth, and garrison.
▶ 0:45:00Mr. Shatswell: I love you more than words and I'm so proud of who you are and how it shows up in your faith, service, and work. My family name the one common has deep roots. John shatswell built his first home. Thomas shatswell was a drummer boy for the patriots in the revolutionary war.
▶ 0:45:28Mr. Shatswell: Of the eight boys in my father's family, six served including my father. Mile cocaine he returned from vietnam wearing a purple heart. I have cousins, nieces, nephews that have served. Before my father passed I took them regularly to the va in tacoma washington and saw what it means to those who served and those who love them. I was raised in an extraordinary family.
▶ 0:46:02Mr. Shatswell: We traveled extensively singing gospel music. We toured europe including behind the iron curtain when I was send -- when I was 10 years old and I remember feeling the oppression as I crossed those borders and I remember as the next time I recited the pledge of allegiance, tears ran down my face.
▶ 0:46:21Mr. Shatswell: Since joining the va as senior advisor to secretary collins I have met with senior leaders in the central office, medical centers, clinics and cemeteries around the country. That time of listening was invaluable. I begin asking what if?
▶ 0:46:46Mr. Shatswell: What if we connected the service members when they enlisted and state president -- present to active duty, transition, and the rest of their lives, no one left behind. What if we eliminated repeatedly asking veterans the same questions and the same information? What if rather than digitizing old paper processes we reimagined them in digitally native ways.
▶ 0:47:10Mr. Shatswell: It has been a blessing to witness the birth of support the country provides its veterans but frankly we can and must do better when it comes to information technology. My conversations with leadership and individual contributors have revealed a few common themes. We need a culture of transparency and accountability achievable throughout jewel program management which will also accelerate mission delivery. We must go faster.
▶ 0:47:44Mr. Shatswell: Enabling a green light to drive productivity and human decision-making. We need to leverage our enterprise data as a strategic asset, strengthening security and unlocking benefits we cannot even fully understand. My resume highlights 30 years of executive leadership, hyper growth, turnaround management yet there are countless untold stories.
▶ 0:48:12Mr. Shatswell: I created and taught the first web development course at microsoft in the mid-1990's. I ask our questions and I do hard work. It has deepened my commitment.
▶ 0:48:39Mr. Shatswell: In loving god, my family, and this country the threat of services in my dna. Mr. chairman and members of this committee thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and be considered for this position. I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:48:53Chair Moran: Thank you for your statement. Mr. tierney.
▶ 0:48:58Mr. Tierney: Chairman moran, ranking member blumenthal, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today, it's a genuine honor. I want to begin by acknowledging my family members who are here with me today.
▶ 0:49:18Mr. Tierney: My wife of 26 years margaret and two of my children a rising freshman at the university of california berkeley. My older daughter madeline is preparing for her graduation at the university of chicago where she is a business economics major. Thank you to president trump and secretary collins for their confidence in me.
▶ 0:49:45Mr. Tierney: There's a quote often attributed to sir thomas moore that has relevance to today. In matters of law morality aside one must remember that the law is the foundation of justice and all who practice it must not evade it. In the practice of being a lawyer I was reminded daily of the importance of the principal to simply follow the law.
▶ 0:50:08Mr. Tierney: My legal as a litigator, then aa corporate attorney and senior partner at a philadelphiai've lt partner at a philadelphiai've le partner at a philadelphiai've ls partner at a philadelphiai've lh high-stakes, complex matters. In one of my larger engagements I managed 40 lawyers through my client's successful acquisition of philadelphia's two major daily newspapers. I also represent the delaware river port authority for more than 15 years.
▶ 0:50:41Mr. Tierney: Most recently I've served as deputy legal advisor for the department of state and at the U.S. agency for international development. These new roles in private practice and as an in-house attorney have shaped my evolution as a lawyer. The office of accountability and whistleblower protection holds a leadership and oversight role under the whistleblower protection act of 2017.
▶ 0:51:11Mr. Tierney: The office which I hope to lead handles whistleblower disclosures and senior leader misconduct. Running an organization with over 400,000 employees delivering direct service to some 9 million veterans involves one of the federal government's most demanding missions yet despite the unique challenges the v.a. Faces, veterans, taxpayers, and v.a.
▶ 0:51:35Mr. Tierney: Staff alike deserve an accountability office that functions with integrity, independence, and genuine commitment to their interests. President trump and congress created this office in a bipartisan fashion to protect the veterans. As the president set at the time with the creation of this office we are sending a strong message, those who fail our veterans will be held for the first time accountable.
▶ 0:52:04Mr. Tierney: I undertake this pursuit with great respect for oa wp's history of protecting whistleblowers. This represents something more than a career step. It is something personal. My father and two oldest brothers were veterans and my son will one day be a veterans.
▶ 0:52:23Mr. Tierney: For this reason alone if confirmed I commit to this committee and to all veterans and to all employees that I will work relentlessly and independently to continue to improve efficiency within operations and processes. As president lincoln stated in his second inaugural address, the country's to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan. These words are inscribed near the entrance to v.a.
▶ 0:52:55Mr. Tierney: Headquarters. They are not a suggestion, they are a promise, one that every function of this department including oawp exists to keep. I will pursue that mission zealously and professionally.
▶ 0:53:09Mr. Tierney: Finally, if confirmed, I will work in conjunction with this committee to continue to improve efficiency within operations and processes and address all matters independently and with accountability and transparency. Serving and respecting our veterans is our country's most sacred obligation and I'm grateful for this opportunity to appear before you and I welcome your questions.
▶ 0:53:42Chair Moran: In order to compensate for my tardiness I will for go my questions for later and recognize senator blumenthal.
▶ 0:53:45Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank to you, your families come your spouse is, I think each of you have three children. They may be here or watching. Let me begin, Mr. tierney, do you have any experience at the va?
▶ 0:54:16Mr. Tierney: Thank you for that question, senator. No, I don't.
▶ 0:54:21Sen. Blumenthal: The answer was no. Do you have any experience working on behalf of whistleblowers?
▶ 0:54:28Mr. Tierney: I have worked with whistleblowers before, yes.
▶ 0:54:32Sen. Blumenthal: In what way?
▶ 0:54:34Mr. Tierney: In my practice at a law firm I had clients who had whistleblower issues, who had personnel misconduct issues that had to be addressed.
▶ 0:54:43Sen. Blumenthal: Did you represent the whistleblower with the company?
▶ 0:54:47Mr. Tierney: I represented the company.
▶ 0:54:50Sen. Blumenthal: So you were against the whistleblowers?
▶ 0:54:53Mr. Tierney: We worked to support the whistleblowers.
▶ 0:54:56Sen. Blumenthal: You works to support the whistleblowers?
▶ 0:54:58Mr. Tierney: To make sure they weren't retaliated against by other senior employees.
▶ 0:55:03Sen. Blumenthal: But you have never represented whistleblowers, correct?
▶ 0:55:07Mr. Tierney: Only protecting them through my clients' representation.
▶ 0:55:11Sen. Blumenthal: I note that you have served most recently as deputy legal advisor at the department of state. You were also deputy acting general counsel at the U.S. agency for international development known as a id. Was that during the time that it was dismantled?
▶ 0:55:35Mr. Tierney: Thank you, senator, for the question. I was not involved in the changes at usaid as far as that size.
▶ 0:55:45Sen. Blumenthal: But you served in the agency during the time it was dismantled.
▶ 0:55:49Mr. Tierney: Sir, yes, that was a gradual, long-term process, but my role had nothing to do with dismantling usaid or letting go any personnel.
▶ 0:56:02Sen. Blumenthal: How did you feel about it being dismantled?
▶ 0:56:05Mr. Tierney: It wasn't part of my role. I was just there really is managing partner of a small law firm making sure --
▶ 0:56:13Sen. Blumenthal: You have no opinion?
▶ 0:56:15Mr. Tierney: It wasn't part of my role, senator.
▶ 0:56:18Sen. Blumenthal: Mr. shatswell, let me ask you, you have been at the v.a. For a period of time as a special advisor, correct?
▶ 0:56:34Mr. Shatswell: Yes, sir.
▶ 0:56:36Sen. Blumenthal: Are you aware that the va has lost whether by firing or otherwise 13 hundred I.t. Employees since the administration took office?
▶ 0:56:49Mr. Shatswell: I'm aware that there were some exiting employees, but that happened before I came and I'm not into the details of what happened.
▶ 0:56:59Sen. Blumenthal: Well, you have been there since december of last year, correct?
▶ 0:57:03Mr. Shatswell: Yes, december 1.
▶ 0:57:06Sen. Blumenthal: And you are saying no I.t. Employees have laughed in the last seven months quest -- left in the last seven months?
▶ 0:57:13Mr. Shatswell: Not that I'm aware of. I've not been involved in the dismissal.
▶ 0:57:17Sen. Blumenthal: What were your duties?
▶ 0:57:19Mr. Shatswell: I was a senior advisor to the secretary.
▶ 0:57:23Sen. Blumenthal: Ok, but what was your area of responsibility? What did you do?
▶ 0:57:29Mr. Shatswell: Thank you, senator, it was a time of learning. I visited hospitals, I visited clinics, cemeteries, I met with senior leadership I spent a good deal of time understanding the different departments so that I could understand the way government works and the way the v.a. --
▶ 0:57:50Sen. Blumenthal: Did you make any recommendations on I.t.?
▶ 0:57:51Mr. Shatswell: I had one presentation where after some time of envisioning and reviewing the technology, reviewing the way that things operated, I had one briefing with secretary collins, yes, sir.
▶ 0:58:03Sen. Blumenthal: Would you say that it is important to restore the positions that have left?
▶ 0:58:16Mr. Shatswell: Senator, I'm not privy to the details of the skill level for the staff details, my review was at a very high level, functional, like departmental review, but not at a detailed employee, so I'm not aware of the individual job skills that are needed.
▶ 0:58:33Sen. Blumenthal: In general wouldn't you agree that it is important to provide more staffing to make I.t. Work better?
▶ 0:58:43Mr. Shatswell: Senator, thank you. I've met a lot of the staff across the country. The I.t. Staff. A good amount of them are actual veterans that have transitioned into the v.a., that has been an amazing experience because of the nature of these people are dedicated loyal and they love serving.
▶ 0:59:06Mr. Shatswell: I do believe I believe that they can serve in the v.a. Oit.
▶ 0:59:27Sen. Blumenthal: May I suggest that I would have welcomed a response to the effect, yes, we need the skilled staff that we have lost because the oit function cannot be improved without it and we need to improve it I hope that is an approach you will take if and when you are confirmed. My time has expired.
▶ 0:59:57Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you for the chairman for letting me go ahead. I apologize, I have another, as we often do, another appointment that I have to get to. Mr. chairman, thank you.
▶ 1:00:09Chair Moran: Senator? >> gentlemen, thank you for being here and I intend to support your nominations. For your confirmation. Mr. shatswell, and my that right?
▶ 1:00:29Mr. Shatswell: Yes, senator. >> the bipartisan failure to modernize the v.a., I've been on this committee going into my 12 year. I've seen very capable secretaries at the v.a. And I have seen some fairly capable leaders in I.t. Make an attempt but they haven't made did -- discernible progress.
▶ 1:00:55Mr. Shatswell: If you look at it from my perspective having done enterprise I.t. Implementations. There is no way this should have taken the time and should have cost what it has cost and I think a part of that has to do with the lack of a rationalization of what this organization needs to look like. You have mentioned things about that -- a best practice and word salad for 12 years now.
▶ 1:01:24Mr. Shatswell: What you going to do to somebody like me that used to work in the same space that you were going to do something different, you're going told people accountable? I've had discussions about what are you get a program office that includes members of this committee they're seeing the progress every day so that you have champions here behind in I.t. Modernization effort.
▶ 1:01:49Mr. Shatswell: What is going to be different about you versus what has been promised to me by democrat and republican nominees in the past. What is the secret sauce, what you bringing into the effort?
▶ 1:01:59Mr. Shatswell: Thank you, senator, for the question. There's a lot in what you just asked. Let me start with to the point of a pmo office, a program management office, it is a necessary piece that does not exist at the leadership level of oit.
▶ 1:02:20Mr. Shatswell: That's a massive challenge and I understand that there have been attempts to implement that in the past and in those attempts there has not been the requisite tooling to ensure that the visibility was managed through dashboarding those kinds of things. One of the first tasks I will be going after is to implement a program management office of confirmed.
▶ 1:02:44Sen. Tillis: Now again I think it would be helpful for us to help you because that is roughly approximately the answer I've gotten on five or six occasions before this committee. I think the message here but you have to have executive sponsorship. I'm going to be the first secretary in 12 years that has followed through on a viable program office that does the sort of work to prioritize I.t.
▶ 1:03:14Sen. Tillis: Platforms initiatives, is held accountable for the initial estimate and for the end estimate on due dates and resources and deliverables. It is amazing how much money we are leaving on the floor by doing this in a bush league way with one of the most large consequential operations in the U.S.
▶ 1:03:36Sen. Tillis: Government, so count me in and the remaining 214 days of my tenure to help you stand up that office but I will tell you in this committee the thing I like about this committee and will miss about it is we are largely bipartisan and I think you are missing the opportunity by not engaging members on this committee to be a part of the program office so they can report back to the chair of the good work you are doing and they can identify the obstacles that need to be removed so you can achieve the goals.
▶ 1:04:05Sen. Tillis: I've made that same commitment to democratic and republican people coming into your position. I hope you will be the first one to take me up on it because then I think you may end up being the first head of I.t. That will actually make a discernible difference versus just barely treading water and making progress around the edges but quite honestly of got to give them aggregate over the last 12 years, the only thing about the
▶ 1:04:35Sen. Tillis: Quadrant on a good day, they are in quadrant number three. They are never going to get to upper right if they don't have good leadership and buy-in. I know you have had a very distinguished career, Mr. tierney. You've got to be doing this because your heart is in it, it is certainly not because the money is great and I look forward to supporting your confirmation.
▶ 1:05:01Sen. Tillis: Tell me how you are going to make whistleblowing something that is great, that people should do to keep everybody at every level of the organization accountable? Very quickly, I know I'm gone over time.
▶ 1:05:13Mr. Tierney: Sure, thank you for your question. It is clear that as a first step employees must feel comfortable reporting on misconduct. Without the report there is no investigation to monitor and control.
▶ 1:05:36Mr. Tierney: How I would do that is mandatory internet training, but I think messaging is very important and coming down from leadership is confirmed I would work with how the process is working and how do we know people are comfortable reporting. I noticed over the last several years the reports have doubled approximately.
▶ 1:06:05Mr. Tierney: You could say that is a good thing because may be more people are feeling comfortable reporting. You could say maybe that is not a good thing because there is more bad conduct going on. That is something I would like to learn more about of confirmed to be able to learn about some information that is honestly confidential at this point and I don't have access to.
▶ 1:06:25Chair Moran: Senator? >> thank you, Mr. chair, good afternoon to you both. Thank you for the willingness to serve. I'm going to start with the question to both of you that I ask now of all nominees, if directed by the president to take action that would break the law, would you follow the law or the president's directive?
▶ 1:06:48Mr. Shatswell: I don't believe the president would do that, ma'am, but yes, I would follow the law.
▶ 1:06:53Sen. Tillis: Mr. tierney?
▶ 1:06:55Mr. Tierney: I similarly don't expect the president to give such a directive but if he did I would 100% always follow the law and ethics. >> will I appreciate your commitment to the law, I will say that we are in a war that was illegally initiated by this president and he has refused to follow the law in that regard.
▶ 1:07:18Mr. Tierney: He has just appointed somebody is acting dni who has no intelligence experience even though the law clearly says that the dni has to have such experience and on the symbolic front, the law is very clear that he did not have the right to put his name on the kennedy center and the court has just ruled that he broke the law and doing that, so I'm concerned that you all started your answer with saying you don't expect the president, this president to
▶ 1:07:48Mr. Tierney: Break the law. Mr. tierney, if you are confirmed, you will be responsible for among other things investigating allegations of whistleblower retaliation as well as receiving and investigating allegations of misconduct, retaliation, or poor performance involving senior v.a. Employees.
▶ 1:08:08Mr. Tierney: The trump administration has retaliated against federal employees it has disagreed with, these are well-publicized events, and you have been working as in your own words as an in-house attorney for this administration. So one of the one hand you've been working for this administration while it has actively and publicly retaliated against whistleblowers so if you are confirmed how are you going to it sure that allegations brought to your office are properly investigated and that employees are protected from retaliation and people have the
▶ 1:08:38Mr. Tierney: Confidence that if they bring a complaint to your office that they will not be retaliated against?
▶ 1:08:43Mr. Tierney: Thank you, senator, that's a great question. If confirmed I would do everything I can to make sure that all v.a. Employees feel comfortable in reporting bad conduct. Without the report, we can't conduct an investigation and even analyze the benefits are not of the investigation or the quality of the investigation so how would we do that?
▶ 1:09:08Mr. Tierney: Currently there are different programs like education, training, mandatory tests, but I would do more than that and really the messaging I think is important that comes down from leadership. This is our role.
▶ 1:09:19Sen. Hassan: I appreciate and understand that as I appreciated your answer to senator tillis but the leader in chief retaliates against people all the time, it is very public that he sees his role as president, that he has the option as president for retaliating against people including whistleblowers. So given that he is the leader here who sends the most dominating message, how are you going to counteract that?
▶ 1:09:49Mr. Tierney: Well, senator, you know, I understand that I report to the secretary and this committee. Again, the role by definition is to make sure employees feel comfortable whistleblowing and reporting on bad conduct and safe that they will not be retaliated against and I would do everything to make sure that messaging is loud and clear and that that is what employees are hearing.
▶ 1:10:14Sen. Hassan: Well I hope you will consider with the counter messaging from the top is like and really be thoughtful about how within the v.a. You can really support whistleblowers. New hampshire and its manchester v.a. Had a series of whistleblower events now about a decade ago and they were very, very difficult for the whistleblowers involved. The whistleblowers, their actions made the manchester v.a.
▶ 1:10:43Sen. Hassan: A better place ultimately because they reported things that need to be reported, but you are going to have your work cut out for you. Mr. shatswell, if confirmed you will be in charge of information and technology in the v.a. And one issue I've been interested in is updating the scheduling capabilities. Especially the technology behind those capabilities.
▶ 1:11:09Sen. Hassan: Right now, veterans for instance can't do all their scheduling all at once on one platform, so it is phone calls or internet access to scheduling platforms kind of one at a time and the time you schedule one visit with one specialist and you get to the next visit that next day may be similar appointments and no longer available.
▶ 1:11:33Sen. Hassan: Senator boseman and I are creating a self-service scheduling platform that would allow veterans to book their v.a. Appointments in one easy location. Our bill passed the senate last year and we are working to get it past the house and signed into law. If our bill becomes law would you commit to working with my office to implement it and stand up and easy, reliable platform that veterans can use to schedule their appointments?
▶ 1:11:58Mr. Shatswell: Yes.
▶ 1:11:59Sen. Hassan: Thank you.
▶ 1:12:03Chair Moran: I'm going to call on senator sheehy next. Senator sheehy?
▶ 1:12:21Senator Sheehy: Good afternoon, guys, congratulations on your appointments. Mr. shatswell, you have a lot of I.t. Experience obviously and we have been working at ways that are care access for community care or direct clinical care can be provided more rapidly and make sure that when those diagnoses are made in those appointments are referred it happens in a timely manner instead of weeks and months of waiting and that administrative
▶ 1:12:52Senator Sheehy: Loop that happens. Is there a technological reason why the v.a. Could not assess at the time that the veteran's request for care or specialty referral that a v.a. Facility can't require -- provide that access to care and abide by the law which requires that to be given in a certain period of time?
▶ 1:13:10Mr. Shatswell: Thanks, senator, for the question. The answer to that is not a fast answer. But I will take a swing out it. When you look at the data that v.a. Has, it starts with the do w. The data flows into the v.a., a little before transition, some after transition.
▶ 1:13:32Mr. Shatswell: That data is one way, then that data goes into systems and there are literally hundreds of databases. Those hundreds of databases make a very complex environment where data is enriched all over the place with one-way data feeds that makes it extremely difficult to find the connections and do what you are asking about. One of the ideas of modernizing the v.a., one of the areas I believe we need to focus on. I spoke with you about this.
▶ 1:14:04Mr. Shatswell: We need an enterprise data platform. We need an enterprise data exchange where there was one place for the war fighter golden record, where all of that data is contained and it is a one system of record that everything points to so that those kind of moments like scheduling, as senator hassan said, so that that becomes simple, it becomes an easy problem to solve. Right now we have 14 scheduling solutions that I'm aware of. That is just unacceptable.
▶ 1:14:32Sen. Sheehy: From the health perspective, that should become part of discharge.
▶ 1:14:38Sen. Sheehy: We cannot discharge a person from active duty until the records have been received by vha. Four specifically, there like if the referral enters on day 1 -- someone is out, they are a veteran, they go into get their specialty care. The referral happens on day one.
▶ 1:14:59Sen. Sheehy: Is there a reason why in the current system that we have, or system of systems, why when that referral happens, it can take days, weeks, or months for that referral to make its way through the system? Is this a community care access problem? Is this an administrative issue? Is this a technology issue with our I.t. Systems that they get lost in 1 and 0 land?
▶ 1:15:27Mr. Shatswell: Thank you, senator. The root of the issue is there isn't anyone system. There is a lot of work to build those bridges and make the data flow. The problem has to be solved in order to make what you are asking for reality.
▶ 1:15:43Sen. Sheehy: I would hope it becomes a reductionist enterprise as opposed to adding wear layers, because what government does when it wants to solve problems, it as more layers. We need to distill the system to hopefully one singular system that hopefully works instead of just layering more -- repaving over the same road over and over again and we are not fixing the pothole, just paving over a
▶ 1:16:12It. Mr. Shatswell: One of my favorite things is turning things off. Want to reduce the complexity. You have a significant cybersecurity, privacy perimeter if you have hundreds of databases. If you can reduce the number, it is much easier to protect. A lot of reasons, saving money, a lot of reasons it makes sense for us to do this.
▶ 1:16:33Sen. Sheehy: Community care. I'm a huge advocate for community care. Hasn't been the most popular with the staff at the v.a., but especially in a state like montana, huge estate without many people, some veterans have a seven-hour drive to the clinic.
▶ 1:16:50Sen. Sheehy: We need to make sure there is open lines of communication so that when community care is not being utilized, community care is intentionally sidelined -- nationally, those reports are collated and acted on. What can you do to assure me that as this will support complaints and reports come in--whistleblower complaints and reports come in, they are not getting sidelined?
▶ 1:17:17Sen. Sheehy: As receipt of provider shortage, community care is going to be critical for veterans.
▶ 1:17:24Mr. Tierney: Thank you, senator. I recognize your naval academy attendance. My son is -- and lieutenant tom --
▶ 1:17:37Sen. Sheehy: I see him there. However you --how are you, admiral?
▶ 1:17:46Mr. Tierney: I have heard from others as well -- some states are much more verbal than others -- much more rural than others. If confirmed, I would talk to the people responsible in those areas and educate myself as to how we can make it better. Distance, service level of care. I would definitely look into that and talk to the people who know how it works, talk to this committee, and see what can we do better and different.
▶ 1:18:19Mr. Tierney: 100% independence is the key to this role. Completely independent, nonpartisan on all issues, and I appreciate you bringing that up.
▶ 1:18:28Sen. Sheehy: Thanks for your time today, gentlemen. It is a key time for the v.a. To modernize and fix problems alluded to that have been bothering us for a long time, so let's stop kicking the can and get it done.
▶ 1:18:39Chair Moran: Senator king.
▶ 1:18:42Sen. King: I apologize to everyone for the phone ringing. Can think of worse times to have that happen, but not offhand. In a hearing is pretty bad. Just to be clear, your remit does not include the electronic medical records project.
▶ 1:18:59Mr. Shatswell: That is correct, senator king.
▶ 1:19:02Sen. King: Its own office and leadership, is that the way it is set up?
▶ 1:19:08Mr. Shatswell: I believe the confusion -- the deputy secretary Dr. lawrence is wearing two hats as the deputy and hacking cio, so it has gotten a little conflated. If confirmed, will I step into the cio? Yes
▶ 1:19:27Sen. King: And medical records is somebody else's problem. Thank you. I will charge you with making your job even more complicated, and that is dealing with the grand canyon between the defense department and the v.a., and how to coordinate systems in that way so that the veteran doesn't get lost,. Doesn't get dropped. Is that a project worth pursuing in your mind?
▶ 1:19:52Mr. Shatswell: 100%. There is a lot we can do to improve service to active duty and veterans.
▶ 1:19:58Sen. King: I would hope that you will learn who your counterparts were in the department so that that kind of activity could begin.
▶ 1:20:05Mr. Shatswell: Yes, sir, as well as dissenters like yourself that can bridge the gaps.
▶ 1:20:10Sen. King: I will do what I can . Mr. tierney, I'm worried about countercurrent's going on here. One is slower protection--one is whistleblower protection, would you have talked about, investigating claims and protecting whistleblowers. At the same time, last year it was reported that the v.a.
▶ 1:20:29Sen. King: Was requiring employees to sign a nondisclosure agreement that did not include the legally required exclusion language for whistleblowers. Are you aware of that situation?
▶ 1:20:45Mr. Shatswell: --
▶ 1:20:48Mr. Tierney: Thank you, senator. I have read reports about that.
▶ 1:20:54Sen. King: The opm in the last week or so has talked about new nondisclosure agreements throughout the federal government. Have you reviewed the language being proposed? : I've not --
▶ 1:21:08Mr. Tierney: I have not, senator king, but nda said whistleblower activity have no role together. Employees must feel 100% comfortable that they will not be restricted in reporting on bad conduct.
▶ 1:21:21Sen. King: I would hope as the legal counsel in the situation that you would inform whoever's setting up these nda's, that language must be in there that says this does not include whistleblower complaints and the protections are left intact. Will you commit that you will do that?
▶ 1:21:38Mr. Tierney: Yes, senator, it and it is on oawp's website, any whistleblower statute overrides any nda language. I agree, there is no role for nda's in whistleblower.
▶ 1:21:54Sen. King: Thank you. I'm a little concerned -- were you general counsel to usaid and the state department? Was that your job title?
▶ 1:22:01Mr. Tierney: Acting deputy general counsel and I am deputy legal advisor at state, which is another way to say deputy general counsel.
▶ 1:22:09Sen. King: Just to clarify, were you in that position when elon musk fed usaid into the wood chipper?
▶ 1:22:16Mr. Tierney: No, sir, I was not.
▶ 1:22:19Sen. King: You were not there during that period?
▶ 1:22:22Mr. Tierney: I was I.
▶ 1:22:25Sen. King: Is it legal to abolish statutory agency unilaterally?
▶ 1:22:30Mr. Tierney: Senator, I appreciate the question, but I have not researched that legal issue and I would not be able to comment on that.
▶ 1:22:38Sen. King: You have read the constitution. You know the law, that congress establishes executive branch agencies. You don't have an opinion on whether the executive can say we no longer need usaid or department of labor or whatever? You don't have an opinion on that?
▶ 1:22:55Mr. Tierney: Thank you, senator. I'm just not familiar with the laws governing that type of issue. I've never had to research it. I never have. So --
▶ 1:23:08Sen. King: And you mentioned the word "independently" several times. What you mean by use of that term?
▶ 1:23:15Mr. Tierney: Well, senator, some the questions from both committees have centered on if there is influence or improper influence, and I want to be clear that that is not acceptable, not appropriate in this role. This role is about independence, transparency, quality of investigation, responsiveness and timeliness.
▶ 1:23:36Sen. King: So you would act independently even if the whistleblower complaint was uncomfortable to the secretary or the president? Is that correct?
▶ 1:23:46Mr. Tierney: I would give the secretary my recommendation regardless of what his response may be. That is my job, to report to him what our investigation finds.
▶ 1:23:57Sen. King: Well, I appreciate those answers. The whistleblower function is very important, counterintuitive that we are enabling people to bring complaints against their superiors in many cases. That is why the position that you have is so important not only to protect those individuals, but to make the government function better. That is the whole idea.
▶ 1:24:21Sen. King: I take you at your word that independence is going to be part of your job and you are going to protect those whistleblowers even if their activities have displeased their superiors and perhaps your superiors.
▶ 1:24:37Mr. Tierney: Senator, no role is about accountability, in my opinion, regardless of how senior that role is. Oawp is here to protect all veterans regardless of the seniority level of the subject at the time.
▶ 1:24:55Sen. King: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:25:00Chair Moran: Mr. shatswell, since assuming your senior advisor role in december, have you used the opportunity to assist the circumstances, the current state of affairs at the office of information and technology?
▶ 1:25:13Mr. Shatswell: To some degree. I was a very opaque lead from a senior leadership level. I have reviewed the structure of the organization. I have had the opportunity to travel and see the technology working in the different locations, the lab down in orlando. I've had the opportunity to assess it at that level, yes.
▶ 1:25:40Chair Moran: I would think there would be a certain stance where you get the legal pad out and yellow pages and start writing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, these other problems and these are my ideas. Have you analyzed your first step day one and after would be in his role?
▶ 1:25:56Mr. Shatswell: Yes, sir. As you can imagine, it is a target-rich environment. There is a lot to fix, there is a lot that can be very distracting. As I have had the opportunity and this time of envisioning, I have kind of broken it up into two categories. One, we will call it organizational, and other on the technical side. On the organizational side, there is a significant need for a proper program management office.
▶ 1:26:26Mr. Shatswell: I call it a program or portfolio value office. At the end of the day we need to be driving the right value to the veterans, and that is the focus of everything we should be doing at oit. How do we do that? Getting into an agile scrum process, which is a process management process management style,, that we will properly tool and train throughout the org if confirmed.
▶ 1:26:54Mr. Shatswell: That will drive accountability at the individual worker level, it will drive visibility at the stakeholder level, so that everyone knows what is going on and what is the status and priority of their piece within the work oit is doing. Eyes wide open, anybody can see it, it's not a mystery. That is what we are driving towards.
▶ 1:27:12Chair Moran: Have you checked to see people --have you talked to people within oit who work there today, work at thev today--work at the v.a. Today, and ask what's been missing? Senator tillis and senator sheehy both indicated the magnitude of the problems. Senator tillis in particular talked about nothing seems to change. I am looking for this -- I'm the guy who is going to make things change, and here's what I know needs to be done, I'm going to hit the ground running.
▶ 1:27:44Chair Moran: Can you assure me you have done that and are that person?
▶ 1:27:47Mr. Shatswell: 1000%, senator. That has been my career experience the last 30 had plus use of technology management. That is what I do. I fix problems. I love the gnarly ones, the ones that are really hard and tough, I love the puzzles, because I like change.
▶ 1:28:05Chair Moran: If that is true, you're going to love this job. [laughter]
▶ 1:28:09Mr. Shatswell: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:28:12Chair Moran: Mr. tierney, let -- let me ask Mr. shatswell again. I'm intrigued by you being a senior advisor to the secretary. I'm intrigued not because of you personally, but it's been the role that so many people have been in who come before our committee seeking -- they have received a nomination, seeking our agreement for that nomination and confirmation. How many people were senior advisors to the secretary department of veterans affairs?
▶ 1:28:43Mr. Shatswell: Sir, I'm sorry, I don't have a number.
▶ 1:28:46Chair Moran: Easy two or three? Dozens?
▶ 1:28:50Mr. Shatswell: No, I don't believe it's doesn't spit a handful, I believe. --I don't believe it's dozens. I handle, I believe.
▶ 1:29:03Chair Moran: How did you become a senior advisor?
▶ 1:29:06Mr. Shatswell: I was working with unilever.
▶ 1:29:09Chair Moran: Approached by the secretary?
▶ 1:29:12Mr. Shatswell: No, white house liaison.
▶ 1:29:15Chair Moran: Was the suggestion that he became a senior advisor that there might be a role for you to play beyond being senior advisor?
▶ 1:29:23Mr. Shatswell: That was a possibility, sir.
▶ 1:29:26Chair Moran: Doesn't seem to you that is the administration's training ground for individuals that they may want to place within the department,, be the senior advisor and let us evaluate you and make a determination whether there is a role for you to play in a more permanent weight at the -- permanent way at the v.a.?
▶ 1:29:47Mr. Shatswell: I can tell you in my experience that is the way it was. Beyond that I don't know how it would look for other folks.
▶ 1:29:54Chair Moran: As a senior advisor at the department of veterans affairs, do you advise the secretary daily, weekly? Is it an ongoing thing? Are you there learning about the department of veterans affairs and preparing for a future position?
▶ 1:30:12Mr. Shatswell: A little bit of both. I was absolutely there meeting with the secretary on a couple of occasions to provide advice and suggestions into what I was learning and the ideations from that, with the opportunity to sit in on meetings and meet the senior leadership and understand the way that the v.a. Works.
▶ 1:30:32Chair Moran: And the advice you were asked to provide to the secretary was related to the job you are being considered for?
▶ 1:30:39Mr. Shatswell: No, sir. It was broader, looking at -- my background, senator moran, I have been over marketing,-over finance, I've been over innovation, technology. The breadth of my background was bringing all of that into play to evaluate everything that was going on.
▶ 1:31:00Mr. Shatswell: And with my lens, coming in as an industry person, not as a government person, gives a unique perspective to the problems that often suffer from shortsightedness, because often decisions are made from a political standpoint and not a long-term, true north plan. From my perspective, I am working to develop what would be that long-term plan so that we have a true north over multiple administrations in the future.
▶ 1:31:29Chair Moran: I will now turn to Mr. tierney Mr. tierney Mr. tierney Mr. t. Oawp is responsible for tracking the v.a.'s compliance with recommendations from inspector general, medical inspector, office of special counsel, and the gao, government accounting office. So it's in addition to the whistleblower aspect that we have mostly been talking about today.
▶ 1:31:55Chair Moran: Do you have a view about the role that those entities play in improving the services and capabilities and the quality of work performed at the department of veterans affairs?
▶ 1:32:09Mr. Tierney: Thank you, senator moran, for that question. Yes, I've read and understand that oawp, osc, and oig have an interplay between the three groups, as far as handling misconduct and as far as doing these reports, as you say.
▶ 1:32:31Mr. Tierney: I would work cooperatively with both of those other sub agencies on making sure that we all of our reporting is accurate, timely, and in the right hands of the right person.
▶ 1:32:43Chair Moran: Mr. tierney, I would indicate -- while I can only speak for myself, but I have enough experience with the members of this committee to have a sense, and it is certainly my sense that this committee pays a lot of attention to the inspector general, the gao. We consider their reports serious and significant. We expect them to be abided by.
▶ 1:33:04Chair Moran: If not, we expect an explanation for what they are recommending is not accomplishmabl is not accomplishmaable, they are making a mistake. I don't know if there's a question in that, but I want you if confirmed -- maybe the question is I want you to confirm that you will take those recommendations by those other agencies seriously and with an understanding that there is an expectation, at least on my part, and I think most, if not all members of this committee,
▶ 1:33:35Chair Moran: That we would see decisions made at the v.a. That reflect what those agencies, what those entities have recommended. Anything that troubles you buy that with that circumstance?
▶ 1:33:48Mr. Tierney: No, senator, not at all. I completely agree, that is a key role of the secretary's responsibility.
▶ 1:33:57Chair Moran: They are not always followed quickly and not always followed, period. I would indicate to you that in munich ending with particularly the staff--in communicating with particularly the staff of this committee, it would be useful to know that you find an objection to a recommendation by the ig or gao -- particularly the ig -- that you want to let us know I assume that is compatible with the way you would operate.
▶ 1:34:26Mr. Tierney: Yes, sir.
▶ 1:34:29Chair Moran: Along that line, let me ask you to commit to providing this committee with briefings on a quarterly basis on oawp's trends, your it when parchments, the ongoing-- your accomplishments, the ongoing priorities, including disciplinary actions taken.
▶ 1:34:49Mr. Tierney: Yes, senator, absolutely.
▶ 1:34:53Chair Moran: I would ask you, Mr. shatswell, a similar question to that. I would like you to commit to providing the committee with quarterly briefings at least on trends, accomplishments, ongoing priorities, to include workforce changes, cybersecurity threats, and modernization projects. Is that acceptable to?
▶ 1:35:13Mr. Shatswell: Yes, senator, I would hope it would be much more frequent than that.
▶ 1:35:18Chair Moran: While senator tillis volunteered to serve on a committee to give you advice on how to fix the department, I would refrain from me volunteering to join you in that effort. But I want to know what you are doing and how it is going and what help you need from us and what is the missing link and finally accomplishing things that members at this people have indicated are important to get the v.a. Once and for all into position it needs to be in regard to I.t.
▶ 1:35:48Mr. Shatswell: You have my commitment to that, sir.
▶ 1:35:51Chair Moran: Senator king.
▶ 1:35:53Sen. King: Quick follow-up. Mr. tierney, during the nomination process, did anyone indicate that there was an intention to weaken or eliminate oawp?
▶ 1:36:03Mr. Tierney: No, senator.
▶ 1:36:05Sen. King: No discussion of that?
▶ 1:36:07Mr. Tierney: Not at all.
▶ 1:36:09Sen. King: Would you resist, and support the office as its director, if there were efforts made to cut staff and reduce the efficacy of the office?
▶ 1:36:21Mr. Tierney: Senator, I believe the office has an important role within v.a. As far as the staff, I don't have a visibility into the function yet. But if confirmed, I would analyze that and see if we need more people, less people. I just don't have an eye into that yet.
▶ 1:36:41Sen. King: Thank you.
▶ 1:36:42Chair Moran: Senator sheehy, anything?
▶ 1:36:45Sen. Sheehy: Thank you both for being here today. We are going to conclude this hearing, and there may be questions that staff want to ask you and they will be submitted to you in writing, and we would expect a timely response from you. We have the leverage of holding your confirmation until we get answers to our questions.
▶ 1:37:12Sen. Sheehy: But let me ask either one of you, which is my usual practice, is there something that you said that you wish you hadn't have, or would like to say that you weren't given the opportunity to say, having heard our questions and seeing the totality of the hearing? You satisfied with where you are?
▶ 1:37:32Mr. Tierney: I am, senator.
▶ 1:37:35Mr. Shatswell: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:37:38Chair Moran: Thank you both very much. With that, hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]